Sonny Liston or Wladimir Klitschko who rates higher as a all time heavyweight?

I think it mostly became a H2H debate at a certain point and comparing their qualities and one person made a whole thing about valuing undisputed over anything else but then slinked into the background when most people questioned the validity of his criteria

 

Yeah no. . If he couldn't keep slow as a sloth Sam Peter off him then he simply doesn't have an ATG jab.

Second raters like Pinky Thomas and Busta Douglas had a jab than Wladdy.

 

No, Wlad has one of the best jabs in heavyweight history. That Sam Peter fight you mentioned was early in his development with Emanuel Steward - his jab got significantly better later on in his career. Even in that fight, Wlad still won every round besides the ones he got knocked down in because of back of the head shots. After developing more under Steward his jab became his most dominant weapon throughout his championship reign.

Comparing him to Pinklon Thomas and Buster Douglas is misleading - and suggesting they would have had similar success against Wlad's competition is pure speculation with no evidence to support it. Thomas and Douglas both had opportunities during their careers and couldn't sustain championship-level success. Meanwhile, Wlad dominated all styles of fighters for over a decade.

 

Someone getting seven teeth knocked out in a boxing match is exceptional to the point that it seems wildly implausible baring something strange like someone failing to put in a mouth piece the entire fight.

Too my knowledge there are no allegations of Foreman, Tyson, Lewis ever doing anything like that.

 

I don't have a dog in this race. There are some good arguments on both sides.

But one thing I find strange is that Holmes has been getting absolutely blasted on this forum for not unifying/missing some key names in his era/not avenging some losses/etc.

Yet when Wladmir has some of the same issues with his resume as Holmes, there are excuses.

 

The difference is that Wlad sought to unify and never ducked any contenders, Holmes is well known to have ducking multiple contenders and cherry picked easier opponents as he got older

 

I don't know.

What I do know is often answers are weak. I mean one of the fellas is trying to claim cross recognition of the bodies prevents unifications both while vacant and held. ... It's a strong case-in-point as to the backing of these ideas being empty.

That said there's obvious flaws in giving the bodies total narrative over championship history. The boys have done well to dig those out of me as well. George asked about lineal and forced me to admit due to inclusion or that lack there of I don't even personally recognize Dempsey as a world champion and see him more as a regional/racial champion. Because, IMO, which is subjective of course, to claim Jack Dempsey is a world champion is to uphold old timey racist propaganda we all know is not the truth of the situation.

Jack of course being a example of a Pre-Louis, Undisputed, HW champion with some defenses. Primo I gave props to here, and I was propagandist about it too. As long as we're talking about Undisputed VS Unified VS Single Strap and in the context of the conversation Primo and Wlad are vehicles for the title discussion then I will not speak to how colorline or globalism effect my personal ratings. ... Simply because it tends to muddy the convo. I'd be arguing with Dempsey fans about racism while arguing with Wlad fans about titles. Bit much. But the real truth is I really struggle to see guys before Louis as world HW champions. HW champions sure, but not world.

I am not prepared to give bodies total narrative over history or to argue that Sam Langford is actually a world champion because a sanctioning body or five crowned him as such.

That said, I'll not offer the flaws to my argument unpressed and I would not regard any post prior as asking anything like a tough question.


As to ring/tbrb ratings and outcomes. That's an easy thing to do when you write you ratings after the fact. Anyone of us can make a chronologically accurate list of successful boxers in order of success.

 

There does seem to be strong affinity for eastern Europeans by a few here.

 

The referee looked at Bethea's mouth, saw it was a bloody mess, and stopped the fight. Multiple reports confirm that Bethea lost seven teeth.

"Vone announced he was retiring Bethea because seven teeth were knocked out in the fight."

https://ibb.co/VbVP0JL

 

They didn’t have fluoride in the drinking water back then.

 

Pinky knocked a guy out with a jab. Buster floored a guy with the jab. Wlad never done either and he fought heaps of undermatched soup cans.
Even in the Peter rematch Wlad was draped all over him like an octopus.
If you have to make excuses then it only re-enforces my claim. He either has an atg jab or he doesn't.
Theres no caveats such as he had a better jab against this guy or at this other point in his career.

Holmes , Lewis , Louis ,Ali ,Liston had a great jabs ALL throughout their careers
Anyway the data doesn't lie. What fight is the best example of his atg jab? Waiting on an answer

 

Apparently Wayne Bethea is still alive. Someone needs to track him down and ask him about Liston (for the 1000th time in his life).

 

Buster jabbed Tysons head off. WK couldn't do the same to Sam Peter to save his life.
He clichéd more than he punched him.

This proves buster had a better jab than WK.
He doesn't even have a hight light reel on YouTube.
I wonder why

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Lol at earlier in his development. He had 47 professional fights when he first fought Sam Peter.
Excuses excuses.
Robert helenius didn't need Manny Stewart to completely shut Peter out. Peter couldn't get near him and was battered from range