Sonny Liston or Wladimir Klitschko who rates higher as a all time heavyweight?

Um, yes.

A photo of Wayne Bethea with all the teeth in the front of his mouth missing would suffice.

He fought for many years and against a lot of big names after that.

A simple photo of a toothless Bethea would change my mind.

 

Side note: The Illinois State Athletic Commission wasn't the most above-board outfit in the 1950s during the Jim Norris/Frankie Carbo era.

Neither were fights at Chicago Stadium. Jim Norris owned Chicago Stadium. It was the site of many fixed and "rumored to have been fixed" fights. (Including Marciano-Walcott 2). Lots of articles were written about the Chicago Stadium and the questionable outcomes at that venue. It was home base for the mob-controlled fighters in that era.

The fact that Bethea's enraged managed claimed the ref was "in the bag" on a fight televised nationally, and fans watching it complained about the stoppage, the fighter complained about the stoppage, only for the manager to totally change his tune days later was par for the course.

Liston was being maneuvered to a title shot. He was a Carbo fighter. The stoppage looked questionable (for that era, where fights tended to go on longer). I'm not saying Liston didn't win the fight. He's much better than Bethea. Clearly.

But the claim that Bethea lost seven teeth seems way over the top in an attempt to silence detractors afterward.

The Kefauver Commission was about to gear up in a year or so and would soon run them all out of the sport.

Carmen Basilio hated fighting at Chicago Stadium, because so many fights weren't on the level there.

 

Actually, the burden of proof would be on those disputing Bethea's manager's claim.

 

Source?

No offense, but I'll take Bethea's manager, and the boxing commission, over a guy who thought Joshua was the best H2H fighter in history.

The poster you're replying to wasn't citing Liston's performance against Bethea as evidence he hit harder than Tyson or Foreman so I have no idea why you brought it up to him. He had SFA to do with that discussion. I've explained this to you countless times. Hopefully this time it'll get through to you but I doubt it.

 

Dundee lied and told the story about the glove delay In Clay-Cooper 1 until the day he died. And it wasn't true.

And the Illinois State Athletic Commission let one fixed fight after another go unchecked at Chicago Stadium that decade.

I've never seen a fighter get one tooth knocked out in a fight and whine about the stoppage, let alone seven.

Have you ever had seven teeth pulled let alone punched out of your skull on camera?

Are you standing there arguing with someone seconds later with no discernable injury on film?

The fight available. It doesn't corelate with what we can easily see.

And I've never seen a photo of Wayne Bethea with missing teeth. Let alone missing seven in the front of his face.

 

Bethea had a solid post-Liston career as a trialhorse and even returned to the top 10 for a while in 1963, but he was never a celebrity so it's not surprising that the media weren't constantly printing pictures of him grinning for the cameras.

The fundamental difference between this and the Ali/Cooper issue - apart from the mountain of evidence which positively disproves that claim - is that no one started saying Ali received significant extra time to recover until years later.

This was what you originally stated about Liston - Bethea. As you put it: "It went from his gums were bleeding to … 60+ years later … he got seven teeth knocked out with one punch." I've shown you that's not true, and that multiple contemporary reports mention Bethea's lost teeth. You're just so determined not to acknowledge this fairly trivial error that you've concocted this conspiracy theory where Bethea's manager and the Illinois commission both lied about it as part of a plot to make Liston look good.

 

I didn't say the recoil of a small cannon there bud.

If the ME is 925 then recoil is about 20-25 assuming the rifle weighs between 5-10 pounds.

And the idea that a man standing can simply take 925ft-lbs to the shoulder and remain standing or even in the same square foot he once stood is ...

.577 Tyrannosaur

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That's about 100 ft-lbs on the recoil. less than a ninth a marciano punch.

over 10k at the muzzle.


Antitank rifle ... maybe on a tank destroyer recoils near a k. It's recoil bud ... you need the solder still able to pull the trigger. more than once.

 

I'm just going to pile on now

The Tesla Model S Plaid and Rivian R1T are known for their incredible torque figures, often exceeding 900 ft-lbs, thanks to their electric motors.

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25 less than Marciano's right hand

 

Not interested in going back and forth in long debates anymore going on for pages and pages i made that a rule to myself because it's simply a waste of time.

But i'll give my two cents quick.

Not a fan of Wladimir and i'd much prefer to watch Liston fight any day of the week.

But i'd simply rate Wladimir higher due to his longevity, more title defences, more wins vs ranked opposition.

In regards to H2H ability ? i think i might favour Liston to beat Wladimir in a fantasy H2H match up. But if we're talking strictly in regards to their resume/achievements then i'd go with Wladimir.

Simple precise to the point and no back and forth for 30+ pages.

 

On the other hand, Bonecrusher knocked out Tim Witherspoon's teeth and the same people praising Liston will claim that Witherspoon took a dive.

 

Oh, ****, my mistake!

I misread a prior post and had thought you told me you are some kind of projectile physics professional. From there, as to not be condescending and show respect for your professional experience I started to allude more than say. That's on me, my bad.

I am not a projectile physics expert. I'd like to speak with one or find something from one speaking to something similar if not Marciano directly.

I am by profession a prosthetist. I make fake body parts for those missing them and in that endeavor of course there is some level of understanding the physics of the human body but as I understand it the US Army measured Rocky's punch like they would muzzle energy of their firearms. So while I can explain what is going on inside Rocco's skeletal structure, and even accept 925 being transferred between bones without damaging him, I lack the ability to relate 925 ft-lbs of energy as a projectile any better than any other jamook with a search engine and some time.

The miscommunication was 100% on me. I misread. You wrote perfectly. Just to be super clear.

Back to the punch though. 925 on the receiving end is like, okay, you already know you're not seeing that in video but does that mean Marciano didn't have such a perfect set up ever in a fight or does it mean Marciano ... showed mercy? I just mean to say, rolling, blocking, that **** only gets you so much. If he's swinging 925 you will be moved. We don't really see that. Marciano is not blasting men across the ring.

So it isn't like a 925 on a pillar means he hit Ezzard with 925 thing. It's more like a are you ****ing sure any human man can produce this much energy into a fist?

The cars, the guns, this is me struggling and floundering for answers. I can't say he did not do it. I can tell you, form being on point, the body can transfer the energy, but that's only half the story, and only on the physics front.

On the history side of things it's like, yup, we all just ignore this. You can look into the army press stuff but as far as a boxing fan consensus, consensus is pretend like it did not happen and that army presser did not exist.

So one might look to other HWs. Who else got measured. Bruno in pounds of force and Tyson in pressure per square inch. Both utterly useless SI for boxing. You know what you get hit with all the time that registers high figures in PSI and LBFT? Wind bro, my farts. Energy is far superior which is why Rocky's punch can at least be related to guns and cars. TF Tyson's PSI tell you? His punch in pressure roughly matches the envelope of a blimp? I'm even more lost trying to turn that **** into something useable and flushed out.

But that does give SOME merit to the 925 being true doesn't it? If Rock was exceptional in form then Tyson and Bruno may not hit as high of numbers and no promoter is trying to promote the second hardest hitter after some 185lber from the 50s. That said, that evidence is weak even in historical and unscientific terms.

And that is it. That is all I have for you. I can go into depth into the kinematic chains and how a human could transfer 925ft-lbs but I can not validate nor discredit the army study.

 

Tanks, Cannons, Teslas, Tyranosaur Rex...

This thread has officially gone into bizarre territory.

 

Wladimir Klitschko does that to people, haha.

 

As far as I know the Army had Rocky punch a 1000 pound stone pillar. It didn't used to be a hard study to find but I did have a quick search and didn't see it.

I probably should make a thread.

I was looking at muzzle energy. I have no clue what the recoil on a small cannon would be.

A larger gun does not give you more recoil. There's engineering and we cap them at about 100. So you can expect a Soviet PTRS-41, .700 Nitro Express, and a .577 Tyrannosaur to recoil all about 100.

hat said, I'm not sure if this was more of the miscommunication or if you meant to tell me look at recoil not muzzle, either way, good idea. I'll see if I can't find something that recoils around 900 ft-lbs of energy.



That said, I love Rocky, but I am suspect this 925 is more to do with remnants of war time propaganda.