Sonny Liston or Wladimir Klitschko who rates higher as a all time heavyweight?

I didn't say the recoil of a small cannon there bud.

If the ME is 925 then recoil is about 20-25 assuming the rifle weighs between 5-10 pounds.

And the idea that a man standing can simply take 925ft-lbs to the shoulder and remain standing or even in the same square foot he once stood is ...

.577 Tyrannosaur

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That's about 100 ft-lbs on the recoil. less than a ninth a marciano punch.

over 10k at the muzzle.


Antitank rifle ... maybe on a tank destroyer recoils near a k. It's recoil bud ... you need the solder still able to pull the trigger. more than once.

 

I'm just going to pile on now

The Tesla Model S Plaid and Rivian R1T are known for their incredible torque figures, often exceeding 900 ft-lbs, thanks to their electric motors.

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25 less than Marciano's right hand

 

Yeah, I know that you said War of 1812 cannon, which would have much more recoil than something that fires "armor piercing bullets." That would seem to be inconsistent enough on its own to make somebody wonder about the claim, since I don't think anything described as firing a "bullet" would have that kind of recoil.

What are the original sources for the Marciano claim? And were they written by someone who understands physics?

 

Not interested in going back and forth in long debates anymore going on for pages and pages i made that a rule to myself because it's simply a waste of time.

But i'll give my two cents quick.

Not a fan of Wladimir and i'd much prefer to watch Liston fight any day of the week.

But i'd simply rate Wladimir higher due to his longevity, more title defences, more wins vs ranked opposition.

In regards to H2H ability ? i think i might favour Liston to beat Wladimir in a fantasy H2H match up. But if we're talking strictly in regards to their resume/achievements then i'd go with Wladimir.

Simple precise to the point and no back and forth for 30+ pages.

 

On the other hand, Bonecrusher knocked out Tim Witherspoon's teeth and the same people praising Liston will claim that Witherspoon took a dive.

 

Oh, ****, my mistake!

I misread a prior post and had thought you told me you are some kind of projectile physics professional. From there, as to not be condescending and show respect for your professional experience I started to allude more than say. That's on me, my bad.

I am not a projectile physics expert. I'd like to speak with one or find something from one speaking to something similar if not Marciano directly.

I am by profession a prosthetist. I make fake body parts for those missing them and in that endeavor of course there is some level of understanding the physics of the human body but as I understand it the US Army measured Rocky's punch like they would muzzle energy of their firearms. So while I can explain what is going on inside Rocco's skeletal structure, and even accept 925 being transferred between bones without damaging him, I lack the ability to relate 925 ft-lbs of energy as a projectile any better than any other jamook with a search engine and some time.

The miscommunication was 100% on me. I misread. You wrote perfectly. Just to be super clear.

Back to the punch though. 925 on the receiving end is like, okay, you already know you're not seeing that in video but does that mean Marciano didn't have such a perfect set up ever in a fight or does it mean Marciano ... showed mercy? I just mean to say, rolling, blocking, that **** only gets you so much. If he's swinging 925 you will be moved. We don't really see that. Marciano is not blasting men across the ring.

So it isn't like a 925 on a pillar means he hit Ezzard with 925 thing. It's more like a are you ****ing sure any human man can produce this much energy into a fist?

The cars, the guns, this is me struggling and floundering for answers. I can't say he did not do it. I can tell you, form being on point, the body can transfer the energy, but that's only half the story, and only on the physics front.

On the history side of things it's like, yup, we all just ignore this. You can look into the army press stuff but as far as a boxing fan consensus, consensus is pretend like it did not happen and that army presser did not exist.

So one might look to other HWs. Who else got measured. Bruno in pounds of force and Tyson in pressure per square inch. Both utterly useless SI for boxing. You know what you get hit with all the time that registers high figures in PSI and LBFT? Wind bro, my farts. Energy is far superior which is why Rocky's punch can at least be related to guns and cars. TF Tyson's PSI tell you? His punch in pressure roughly matches the envelope of a blimp? I'm even more lost trying to turn that **** into something useable and flushed out.

But that does give SOME merit to the 925 being true doesn't it? If Rock was exceptional in form then Tyson and Bruno may not hit as high of numbers and no promoter is trying to promote the second hardest hitter after some 185lber from the 50s. That said, that evidence is weak even in historical and unscientific terms.

And that is it. That is all I have for you. I can go into depth into the kinematic chains and how a human could transfer 925ft-lbs but I can not validate nor discredit the army study.

 

Makes sense. For my part, the way I would tentatively make peace with it for now is to bracket the units used -- since I don't have the original study, and don't trust the boxing folklore telephone game to accurately transmit it being foot-pounds rather than PSI or something else in the absence of the original source -- and take the analogy, which sounds more like something the Army spokesman might have told the reporters to give them an idea what it meant. If we're talking one of the WW2-era American "armor piercing bullets" issued to riflemen to go after slightly harder targets (basically an American K bullet), it would actually be pretty unimpressive. If it's a Soviet PTRS-41 type of armor piercing bullet, I think we might still be in the realm of the humanly possible, since it might look like a nastier version of the 577 you posted if someone was stupid enough to shoulder fire it. (The Tyrannosaur itself might be able to penetrate thin "bulletproof" steel shields, if the British WW1 experience using Nitro Express elephant guns is any indication.) I wouldn't really want to get hit by a guy comparable to the recoil of any of those weapons, but if we're talking about a specialist smaller caliber antitank rifle...well, I've seen the occasional video of an average dude getting hit by a professional boxer in a nonvital area, and I've seen videos of guys shoulder firing stuff they shouldn't be, and it doesn't seem *that* far off.

 

Tanks, Cannons, Teslas, Tyranosaur Rex...

This thread has officially gone into bizarre territory.

 

The Tyrannosaur is the name of a big game hunting round. IIRC, it was a tongue in cheek name, since there's a formula for the amount of energy you need in a bullet to reliably kill large animals, and the propellant/mass of this particular .577 is enough to reliably kill an animal with the mass of (paleontologists' best guess at the reconstruction of) a T-Rex.

 

Wladimir Klitschko does that to people, haha.

 

As far as I know the Army had Rocky punch a 1000 pound stone pillar. It didn't used to be a hard study to find but I did have a quick search and didn't see it.

I probably should make a thread.

I was looking at muzzle energy. I have no clue what the recoil on a small cannon would be.

A larger gun does not give you more recoil. There's engineering and we cap them at about 100. So you can expect a Soviet PTRS-41, .700 Nitro Express, and a .577 Tyrannosaur to recoil all about 100.

hat said, I'm not sure if this was more of the miscommunication or if you meant to tell me look at recoil not muzzle, either way, good idea. I'll see if I can't find something that recoils around 900 ft-lbs of energy.



That said, I love Rocky, but I am suspect this 925 is more to do with remnants of war time propaganda.

 

So it may be more a profound misunderstanding of the physics on my part than anything, but I'm just talking about the jolt that you would expect to go into your shoulder and the firearm. The recoil. Some of it is going to be absorbed by the heavier frame, but the rest is going into you. It's my understanding that, equal-and-opposite-reaction style, what you and the firearm are absorbing is basically the same as what's pushing the bullet through the armor plating (except concentrated into the tiny bullet rather than spread out across your shoulder and the firearm, so it has the oomph to punch through.)

Repeatedly taking the recoil of an elephant gun wrapped in a boxing glove to vital areas seems like it would be more than adequate to injure somebody. But it wouldn't result in Rocky literally tearing people's heads off like the recoil of a War of 1812 cannon. (Probably not even if it's an artificially light elephant gun with really brutal recoil.) So it would seem to fit.

 

I would think you have to rank Wlad higher, his resume and reign speak for itself. You can say "yeah but who did he beat", but 9? years as the champion that speaks for itself.

 

Well fair enough, I guess you're entitled to be sceptical about Liston's
removal of Bethea's 7 teeth with one punch.It is a remarkable example
of punching power that very few men could match.

As far as I know no picture of Bethea sans 7 teeth exists.Vanity would
probably prevent him from posing for such a picture.

However,Ray Shoeninger,a sparring partner of Liston, said on film about
one sparring session in which he felt the full force of Liston's power :

'' He shattered my teeth .He knocked my shoulder out of place.Hey,I lost
three teeth when he hit me with a jab wearing 20 ounce gloves ''.

There is absolutely no reason to believe this man is lying.One could argue
that this feat descibed by Shoeninger even surpassed Liston knocking
out 7 of Bethea's teeth.