Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

A lot of people here seem to rank Liston ahead of Tyson and Foreman. Not all, plenty don't in fact. But Liston is viewed very favorably. This seems to be due to his built up status in H2H scenarios. Somehow, Tyson gets the bully cast more than Liston does. Yes, Liston is an incredibly complete fighter. And has a solid resume and comp and unfortunately lost it all when the GOAT dethroned him. But losing should cost for something... losing twice against GOAT in an embarrassing fashion should too. Shouldn't it? Corruption, threats, conspiracy theories or not. That's not for us to judge, analyze, or determine. Falling into obscurity should hurt his legacy.

A lot of his credit goes to cleaning up the division from 58-62. I credit him for that, but a lot of his credit is due to KOing a HOF Heavyweight like Patterson in the 1st round - not once but twice. Similarly, I've heard from a very respected poster that this is such an achievement that he should get massive credit for it. It's not indifferent to the Foreman vs Frazier showdown because it took Foreman 2 rounds and not 1. This was a showcase of power and destruction, though. Yes, Frazier under-estimated Foreman. Didn't train properly with the discipline he should have and came in about 8-10 pounds overweight. Joe Frazier thought he could slip that lazy jab and left hook Foreman to death. Didn't pan out that way. But frankly, under-estimating Foreman and being a little past your best doesn't do enough to discredit this demolish-ment against a top 10 HW of all time. Even if Frazier is made to order for Foreman, this doesn't effect this accomplishment just explain its. And Foreman, doing this to not only Frazier once but twice does this to Kenny Norton. Then you take the rest of his resume, accomplishments, and 90's championship run and you have one of the all time great Heavyweights. Also, Foreman won the HW Gold Medal. This is a nice bonus.

Tyson cleaned up the division in the 80's. On a resume basis, Liston vs Tyson is comparable I admit. But Tyson did this as a champion. Not Liston's fault he was ducked, but Tyson was cleaning up and defending his title. Liston gets props for his 1 round demolishment of Patterson, and although Patterson is a more accomplished HW than Spinks I still think Tyson's 1 round demolishment is equally as impressive.

Then take his 90's run. He loses to the best in Holyfield and Lewis, but beats Ruddock twice and regains the title a second time. Tyson gets cast as a bully with no heart but he came back from prison to win the title. Liston fell of the map after the second Ali fight. Yes, Liston was old, but Tyson did more and should be granted a higher ranking. No? At this moment, I have Liston ahead but with more thought I think Tyson deserves to be ranked above him.

Even guys like Frazier and Holyfield. Frazier, especially. Can Liston be ranked above him? Holyfield, although inconsistent, probably has the best resume of anyone HW besides Muhamamad Ali. Doesn't that count for something?

Now, I understand some rate with H2H. And this is what it comes down to. Does Sonny have ability, height, reach, to be such a monster to grant this status? Is he that much better than either Foreman or Tyson in terms of H2H?

Thoughts on my current anti-Liston rant. Honestly, he is a potential top 10 HW. A borderline top 10 HW. But I've seen him ranked as high as #3. And I've seen him in many people's top 5. Yes, I know when the poll was conducted Liston did not make the top 10, but... what's the fascination with the few respectable posters giving him such high praise. This high praise, isn't like the Tyson fanatics that are 14 year old boys that love KO highlights. This is coming from our best members.

 

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This is very true. I guess that's what makes Sonny so appealing. He's so awesome on paper... but that's just paper. I'm not saying that doesn't always translate, because it does and we see this in film. But his versatility, skill, ability and overly appeal is no real legit justification to me of being a top 5 ranked HW. To me, having him off your list is more viable. H2H the guy is clearly monster, but how far along has Liston versatility been over-credited and over-emphasized. Fighting off the back foot is nice and all, but it doesn't mean he controls range and distance against Holmes, Ali, or even neccessarily beats swarmers like Frazier and Tyson. Yes, on paper Sonny is as murderous as he was on film. And I guess this gives him a chance to win any fantasy fight. And that's what his ability/diversity does give him a legitimate shot. He had no real limitation, however, in his most defining fights he crumbled and folded. That's what we remember him by, and perhaps if he was consistently stood up to then he would break. Mentally, just like Tyson did. I have a feel he fell apart mentally more in the Ali fights than physically. Cleveland Williams get Knocked out too soon. He didn't dent Sonny's armor enough. Sonny felt it but wasn't discouraged enough. Imagine that over the course of 5-10 more rounds. Can he take that? Has he ever proven to win a real dogfight? No... favoring him against Holyfield, Lewis, Ali, Holmes, Tyson, and even Frazier and Foreman can be difficult. This guys generally should grit, toughness, and skill. Tyson is the only one casted as a mentally weak fighter on that list. Liston gets too much of a pass, perhaps? Maybe I'm just ranting and raving over nothing. Most likely...

Many posters. Check the HW rankings list. Some of the most credible and respected posters have Liston as far as anywhere from 3-5. To be specific, McGrain has him #4 I believe. Suzie Q has him ranked #3 and Muchmoore has him #5 or #6.

 

But he's above the second coming of Foreman, right? Is that the Monk you refer to?

I agree. I have Foreman ranked very highly. In fact, as high as the people that rank Liston as high as they do.

Neither do I, and I don't know how you could. Regardless of a little overweight and a little past prime. Frazier was still 29 and seen as being great after beating Ali in FOTC. Liston has like the quickest win in championship history over a top 25 HW of all time. This sort of achievement gets blown way out of proportion. It's a get achievement but doesn't enhance the win into some milestone.

Yes, Liston/Tyson are tougher to call. Much more similarities and general pattern. Tyson lost against the best of his eras in the 90's, Liston lost to Ali twice. Both cleaned out divisions. Liston did pre-title, Tyson did during his reign. Last time I checked, I have Liston ranked #8 with Tyson #10.

I wouldn't diminish Nino Valdes though.