Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Senor Pepe', Nov 11, 2012.


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  1. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    Bill B,

    Cassius wasn't that smart to devise this scheme, it was all negotiated
    between Robert Nilon, Jack Nilon and Sonny Liston (Liston Team) and
    William Faversham (Louisville Sponsoring Group of the Cassius Clay Team).

    Money.....

    The only place that the bout could take place was Miami Beach, as
    every other Boxing Commission would not allow the bout to be staged
    in their State, after finding out about multiple fight contracts, and
    Liston's obvious connections to 'that crowd'.

    A) Cassius Clay would score a 'major upset' by defeating Sonny Liston,
    in a bout wrapped up in controversy, setting the stage and buying public
    into wanting a rematch.

    B) A rematch would be set for anywhere from September 1964 thru November 1964 - and in Las Vegas.

    C) With so much controversy, Nevada and 47 other States turn down
    the bout, claiming 'something isn't Kosher with this'.

    D) Even Miami Beach (Cassius Clay's home base) doesn't want it.

    E) Sonny Liston was supposed to win the 1964 Rematch, with more
    controversy, leading for a 'third match' in 1965.

    F) The money to be made, was not 'betting money', but the rights to the
    promotions, and the lucrative closed circuit revenue.

    For anyone to state that the fight in Miami Beach in February 1964 was on the up-and-up,
    please answer this question ...

    Why did 29 of 29 State Boxing Commissions ban the rematch from participating in their state.
    Even Kentucky, (Mr. Clay's home state) banned the rematch.

    I guess they all were misinformed...........
     
    Senor Pepe', Nov 12, 2012
    Senor Pepe', Nov 12, 2012
    #31
  2. Lord Tywin

    Lord Tywin Guest

    More lies and bull****.

    If Ali-Liston 1 was fixed ahead of time by some secret imaginary contract why did Liston spike his gloves to blind Ali and win? Doesnt really make sense does it?
     
    Lord Tywin, Nov 12, 2012
    Lord Tywin, Nov 12, 2012
    #32
  3. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Ironic, you're using one 'conspiracy theory' in an attempt to debunk another.
     
    Unforgiven, Nov 12, 2012
    Unforgiven, Nov 12, 2012
    #33
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Plus, there are explanations. A legitimate accident. A corner acting without Liston's say so. Perhaps something got in his eyes in his own corner (there were people ringside who thought this was what happened).

    On the other hand, numerous doctors attested to Liston's injured shoulder, and Ali looks the better of the two in the fight.



    The only people I have truck with here are the people who see it one way or the other in some definite light. I always leaned towards the fix though.
     
    McGrain, Nov 12, 2012
    McGrain, Nov 12, 2012
    #34
  5. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    Correct, Mr Un.

    Unfortunately HOUDINI cannot see the forest for the trees.

    Chris Dundee (Wrestiling Promoter in Miami Beach) was an advisor for
    the fight in Miami Beach.
     
    Senor Pepe', Nov 12, 2012
    Senor Pepe', Nov 12, 2012
    #35
  6. Lord Tywin

    Lord Tywin Guest

    The difference is that the first conspiracy theory actually has "some" evidence to support it.

    Basically the bottom line is Pepe/Duce who has in the past, several times, been caught fabricating quotes is now pretending to have seen an imaginary contract.

    Even if there were an immediate rematch clause in the event of a loss that is not unheard of. We still see those today on occasion.

    The sad fact is that Pepe has already said Liston is his favorite fighter. He hates Ali. The guy cant accept that someone he hates (who beat more formidible fighters than Liston) defeated Liston with ease.

    Ali beat Liston, took his heart and made him quit. In essence he exposed him. Pepe/Duce cant accept that.
     
    Lord Tywin, Nov 12, 2012
    Lord Tywin, Nov 12, 2012
    #36
  7. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    It doesn't make sense because it didn't happen.

    "But this week Angelo Dundee, Clay's legendary trainer, finally dismissed that theory. Dundee, 82, revealed: 'People said Liston put liniment on his gloves to blind Ali, but that was a crock."

    http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/liston-didnt-blind-ali-6987354.html
     
    BillB, Nov 12, 2012
    BillB, Nov 12, 2012
    #37
  8. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    Sir Lord,,,,,,,

    There wasn't a rematch clause 'in the documentation'

    Of course you fall prey to following some 'snippets'

    The contract stated, that Inter-Continental-Promotions had the 'right'
    to choose the first and second opponent for Cassius Clay, as well as
    being the closed circuit telecast operator and primary fight promotion controller.
     
    Senor Pepe', Nov 12, 2012
    Senor Pepe', Nov 12, 2012
    #38
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There IS evidence for the first fight being a fix, however.

    Liston told a couple of people it was fixed (After). Liston told people they shouldn't bet on him versus Ali (before, and very unusal). He was almost entirely owned by gangsters looking to cash on on their last big chip before quitting the boxing game. In fact, if this fight was fought in 1880, I think it would be generally held to be fixed.

    But we have the fight film, which seems to support a straight up victory of some description (though there a few bits and bobs even here).
     
    McGrain, Nov 12, 2012
    McGrain, Nov 12, 2012
    #39
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol:

    You make far, far to much of these contracts - in fact, your language relating to it is ridiculous. Furthermore, it was worth much less to these guys than the deal Braddock and Gould made with Madison Square Garden and those goons.
     
    McGrain, Nov 12, 2012
    McGrain, Nov 12, 2012
    #40
  11. Lord Tywin

    Lord Tywin Guest


    And this points to a fix how?
     
    Lord Tywin, Nov 12, 2012
    Lord Tywin, Nov 12, 2012
    #41
  12. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    When all was said and done, it would be interesting to see how much this 'cartel' gained from the business of Clay being champion.
    I-C promotions must have made a fair bit on the Ali v. Floyd Patterson fight in Vegas plus closed-circuit TV, and we can only guess who else made a killing out of big time boxing returning to Vegas in 1965.
     
    Unforgiven, Nov 12, 2012
    Unforgiven, Nov 12, 2012
    #42
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    You can't believe it was anything like a dunt, and that's without even measuring the money that was hooked in gambling. But that is interesting because nobody has been able to point to anything really odd in terms of gambling anything like as persuasive as the sudden rush of money on, say, Carpantier before he met Dempsey. If there was serious money made on gambling it was brilliantly disguised. At the end of the day though, expecting what was basically the mafia and its associates to produce a serious paper trail is tilting at windmills.
     
    McGrain, Nov 12, 2012
    McGrain, Nov 12, 2012
    #43
  14. groove

    groove Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Pepe, Can I see your secret Foreman Ali Fight Contract?
     
    groove, Nov 12, 2012
    groove, Nov 12, 2012
    #44
  15. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    There is none, as that fight was legitimate.

    By the way, how much in gate receipts would have a Sonny Liston
    vs. Eddie Machen fight done in late-1964, had Sonny won that bout versus Cassius Clay in February 1964.

    I-C-P did their calculations, and Sonny would have been lucky to
    get $200,000.

    Nobody wanted that fight. Not anybody that wanted to make money.
     
    Senor Pepe', Nov 12, 2012
    Senor Pepe', Nov 12, 2012
    #45
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