Sonny Liston Thread

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Fighting Yoda, Jul 23, 2021.



  1. The Fighting Yoda

    The Fighting Yoda Active Member Full Member

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    The Rise and Fall of Sonny Liston:

    Sonny Liston is certainly one of the most interesting heavyweight boxing champions. Nowadays he is often underrated, due to his rather short title reign and his two defeats to the outstanding Muhammad Ali. He was pretty unpopular in his day. He was considered a brutal thug with a criminal/prison past etc.
    For instance, Rocky Marciano the great and much more popular Champion, was elected 3times as The Ring magazines Fighter of the Year, and Floyd Patterson and even Ingemar Johansson were elected twice. Sonny Liston was never The Ring magazines Fighter of the Year though. He never won the Sugar Ray Robinson Award either.
    On the other hand, he was considered almost unbeatable in his prime. He was more dominant than almost any other great heavyweight boxers in history. Unofficially, he was already considered the strongest heavyweight before he became world champion. Roughly said, he dominated the heavyweight division for roundabout 5 years until Muhammad Ali replaced him.
    So, it was interesting for me to follow his career development more systematically, to better assess his strengths and weaknesses and his heydays and talk to others boxing fans about it.
    For me it is also a little English practice.
    Thus, I watched the footages of his fights (which I could find on the Internet) up to the bouts against Muhammad Ali and created some scorecards.
     
    Richard M Murrieta likes this.
  2. The Fighting Yoda

    The Fighting Yoda Active Member Full Member

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    Some of Sonny Liston's pre-championship bouts:

    Year: 1958

    1. Sonny Liston vs. Wayne Bethea

    Round 1: Liston wins by TKO

    Wayne Bethea, a decent fighter (The Ring Rating: No. 10, 1956 + No. 8, 1957 as HW contender) had no chance. Liston started explosively. A huge left hook knocked Bethea down, who got up again.
    The referee stopped the fight after a heavy right hand staggered Bethea.

    2. Sonny Liston vs. Bert Whitehurst II

    Round 1: Liston (5-4)
    Round 2: Liston (5-4)
    Round 3: Liston (5-4)
    Round 4: Liston (5-4)
    Round 5: Liston (5-4)
    Round 6: Liston (5-4)
    Round 7: Liston (5-4)
    Round 8: Liston (5-4)
    Round 9: Liston (5-3)
    Round 10: Liston (5-3)

    I scored it: 50-38 Liston.
    Judges scores: 50-37 Liston, 48-39 Liston, 50-40 Liston


    Liston scored the rounds with his great, steady and heavy jab. He showed good footwork either. He fought a bit cagey and benefited from his superior physical attributes, his superior strength and his jab.

    Bert Whitehurst, btw. scientist and boxing veteran was experienced, slick, agile and brave with a good footwork, good defense, a decent jab and good body punches. The first rounds were also a bit closer. Bert Whitehurst landed a nice overhand right, which shook Liston up a bit in the first round, and he threw a good combination when Liston was shortly off balance in the third round. The fourth round was a pretty good and fast little slugfest. Liston dominated a brawl in round 7 and round 8 with his long and precise jab.
    In round 9, Whitehurst was floored by a right hand from Liston. Afterwards, Liston tried to knock him off and landed several power punches. Whitehurst barely survived that round.
    At the end of round 10, Whitehurst was knocked through the ropes, due to flurry of punches and two vicious left hooks from Liston.
    Whitehurst was barely on his feet at 9 when the bell rang. How close can it be, whether you are knocked out or not?

    Year: 1959

    3. Sonny Liston vs. Cleveland Williams I

    Round 1: Williams (10-9)
    Round 2: Liston (10-9)
    Round 3: Liston wins by KO.

    I scored it: 10-10 Even.

    Sonny Liston started slowly. Strong first round by Cleveland Williams though. Williams had a beautiful left hand and threw some good jabs and left hooks. Liston’s nose was bleeding. Williams was the taller guy and his reach seemed to be at least equal.
    Explosive start from Williams in round two, but Liston got stronger and stronger. Next to his brutal left jab, he could land some left hooks and right hands.
    Explosive start from Williams in round two, but Liston got stronger and stronger. Next to his brutal left jab, he could land some left hooks and right hands.
    In the third round, he sent Williams to the canvas with a smashing left hook, and Williams took the count. When he came up, Liston finished him with plenty of blows and a booming right.

    4. Sonny Liston vs. Willi Besmanoff

    Round 1: Liston (10-9)
    Round 2: Liston (10-9)
    Round 3: Liston (10-9)
    Round 4: Liston (10-9)
    Round 5: Liston (10-9)
    Round 6: Liston (10-9)
    Liston wins via stoppage before round 7.

    I scored it: 60-54 Liston.

    It was an easy win for Liston. Willi Besmanoff, a strong journeyman with an excellent chin was more of a punch bag here. Liston landed numerous power punches. The pace was rather moderate.
    Besmanoff suffered a bad double cut in round two, which was bleeding quite heavily. The doctor checked it out during the break. The injuries got worse and the bout more and more one-sided. The referee stopped the fight before the bell rang for the 7th round. Until then it was Besmanoff's first knockout loss.
    All in all, the least attractive fight till now.

    Year: 1960

    5. Sonny Liston vs. Cleveland Williams II

    Round 1: Williams (10-9)
    Round 2: Liston wins by KO.

    Good, fast-paced and close first round. Williams with fast and heavy hands. Liston showed good body movement, footwork and a fast, stiff jab.
    Williams started the second round with fast punches and got Liston into a shell, but Liston fought back and scored a hard right. He knocked Williams down with a tremendous left hook. Williams got up, but he couldn’t survive the following onslaught. The referee stopped an action-packed battle. Very Impressing performance by Liston.

    6. Sonny Liston vs. Roy Harris

    Round 1: Liston wins by TKO.

    Roy Harris, the former challenger of world champion Floyd Patterson, who lost just once via knockout before this fight (against Patterson) had no chance. Liston knocked him down three times. At first with a smashing left hook, afterwards with a beautiful overhand right and at the end with a devastating right to the head. The referee stopped the fight.

    7. Sonny Liston vs. Eddie Machen

    Round 1: Liston (10-9)
    Round 2: Liston (10-9)
    Round 3: Liston (10-9)
    Round 4: Liston (10-9)
    Round 5: Liston (10-9)
    Round 6: Liston (10-9), Liston -1 point, due to low hitting
    Round 7: Liston (10-9)
    Round 8: Liston (10-9)
    Round 9: Liston (10-9)
    Round 10: Liston (10-9)
    Round 11: Liston (10-9), Liston -2 points, due to low blow
    Round 12: Liston (10-9)

    I scored it: 117-108 Liston.
    Judges scores: 119-112, 118-114, 118-116 for Liston ?


    The point deduction stuff is a bit complicated. The commentator stated 2 points, due to a heavy low blow in round 11. Later the judges only deducted one point, one judge scored the fight: 119-112?...
    I think two points are okay, due to a heavy low punch and Machen needed some time to recover. However, he continued to fight. Otherwise, Liston might have been disqualified....

    Sonny Liston was ranked number 1 contender and Eddie Machen number 2. The presenter indicated Liston's reach with 82" and Machen's with 75". Machen was an excellent defensive counterpuncher with good footwork and a good left hook. All in all, I think Liston won pretty much every round (apart from point deductions). The film quality wasn't the best though. Liston was the aggressor and Machen fought more carefully. However, Machen fought a courageous last round and this round was pretty close.

    Year: 1961

    8. Sonny Liston vs. Albert Westphal

    Round 1: Liston wins by KO.

    Liston knocked Westphal out with a thunderous right to the jaw. Westphal was a good mover and was never knocked down before.
     
  3. The Fighting Yoda

    The Fighting Yoda Active Member Full Member

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    Sonny Liston's championship fights:

    Year: 1962

    9. Sonny Liston vs. Floyd Patterson I

    Round 1: Liston wins by KO.

    Liston finally became world champion. He showed his great, fast, hard left again. He floored Patterson with a left hook on the ropes.

    Year: 1963

    10. Sonny Liston vs. Floyd Patterson II

    Round 1: Liston wins by KO.

    Liston repeated his early knockout win in the rematch. He fought very explosively and thus forced the early knockout. Patterson was down 3 times. At first even by a heavy uppercut.

    Year: 1964

    11. Sonny Liston vs. Muhammad Ali I

    Round 1: Ali (10-9)
    Round 2: Liston (10-9)
    Round 3: Ali (10-9)
    Round 4: Even (10-10)
    Round 5: Liston (10-9)
    Round 6: Ali (10-9)
    Ali wins via stoppage.

    I scored it: 58-57 Ali.
    Judges scores: 57-57, 58-56, 56-58


    Careful beginning of the first round, Liston could land a good body punch. Ali could land some good combinations and jabs at the end of the round.
    The second round was pretty close, but Liston was the aggressor and landed the cleaner punches.
    At the beginning of the third round, Ali landed a flurry of punches with lightning speed. Liston suffered a cut underneath his left eye. Subsequently, Liston fought back, but Ali could avoid many punches, due to his brilliant reflexes and footwork.
    The fourth round was pretty even. Ali landed some good jabs, Liston a few better power punches though.
    In the fifth round, Ali was handicapped, because something was burning in his eyes (a substance from Liston's gloves). He was heavily blinking. Nevertheless, he resisted Liston's onslaught and was even taunting him.
    Strong sixth round by Ali. He landed several severe punches. Liston seemed tired and also a little discouraged.
    After round six, Liston quit on his stool (he stated: due to a shoulder injury).

    Year: 1965

    12. Sonny Liston vs. Muhammad Ali II

    Round 1: Ali wins by KO.


    One of the most controversial bouts of all time. Ali knocked Liston down with a rather inconspicuous right over Liston's left. Was it enough to send a juggernaut like Liston to the canvas? On the other hand, it might hit Liston's temple. Liston got up, but the referee (Jersey Joe Walcott) stopped the fight a little later, after consultation with the timekeeper. Well, Walcott didn't pick up the count from the timekeeper and didn't get Ali to a neutral corner. All in all, it was a mess and stopped too soon.
     
  4. The Fighting Yoda

    The Fighting Yoda Active Member Full Member

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    Short summary:

    Liston's strengths:
    Of course, he had a fantastic, heavy jab that almost scored rounds by itself. He had a huge reach, tremendous power in both hands and enormous body strength. He had a good chin and was a good boxer. His footwork was decent and, in his heyday, he had a good body movement. Even his hand speed was decent and much better compared to that what I have watched in his later fights (late 60s). He fought crafty and was able to execute various punches with high precision. Last but not least, he was an intimidator.

    Liston's weaknesses:
    Well, it's not that easy to find some. Maybe some things he wasn't too good:
    He wasn't the fastest on his feet. He wasn't a master in cutting off the ring like George Foreman and relied more on his jab. He seemed a little prone to cuts and strong overhand rights. He let himself be a little frustrated by defensive or evasive fighters (like Eddie Machen).
     
  5. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Great stuff Yoda. Always happy to read about Sonny and your English gets better every time you post.

    I think we also have to add lack of focus in evaluating Sonny. He was always liable to run with a bad crowd and get distracted, although he seemed quite focussed late 50s when he wasn't getting arrested (which may not have been his fault entirely).

    Also, he is often credited with being a devastating two handed puncher but I have read that his right was more like a slap, albeit a heavy slap. I think it was Zora Folley who noted how suprised he was with the power in the right.

    Also, in the second Williams fight, he shows a slight lack of nouse in the finishing of Cleveland imo. Cleve was out on his feet but Sonny just kept winging arm punches. He looked a bit tired if anything. It reminded me of when Foreman beat Lyle and George was just popping arm shots on Ron.

    A top drawer finisher faced with such tried and hurt prey would have made a more convincing show, I feel. Prime Louis or Frazier or Tyson would have used better footwork to establish the right distance to allow themselves to plant their feet and would have battered body and head with some real snap on their punches as they would have been in the right position to do so. Still, Sonny was there; I wasn't, and he may have sensed he had his man beaten. And I am basing a criticism on a few moments in one fight in a man's career which isn't fair.

    So I have only picked faults. That's quite hard to do because he was pretty complete as your assessment of his strengths shows. You had covered everything in that aspect of Sonny's game. There was nothing for me to add thus I picked faults.

    Not sure I've added anything of value but I enjoyed your posts and felt they deserved the courtesy of a considered response given the effort you had clearly put in. Keep safe, mucker, and I'll look forward to the next time you practise your English.
     
  6. The Fighting Yoda

    The Fighting Yoda Active Member Full Member

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    Thanks Eddie, I appreciate that and thanks for sharing your deep knowledge! You added some really interesting aspects. I've never heard of Zora Folley's statement either. I once read an old interview with Marty Marshall in which he said that Liston didn’t hits harder than Bob Satterfield. He also said that Muhammad Ali (at that time: Cassius Clay) has the best chance of defeating Liston (next to him). Well, this experienced fighter already had a good intuition.

    For me, these kind of career threads are quite interesting. I watch the available fights, create some scorecards and learn more about their techniques, development, strengths, weaknesses and so on. Perhaps some other boxing fans like to share their ideas, scorecards etc... either.

    Maybe I'll do at least two more threads like this in the next few months, or till the end of the year. I was thinking of Henry Armstrong and maybe Joe Louis. Btw., I ordered Armstrong's biography: Gloves, Glory, and God recently. Astonishingly, the book is even available in German and pretty cheap (for less than 2 €). However, the English book is quite expensive. Thus, I can add some key data about the boxer and maybe a few interesting anecdotes in the thread. Then I just take my time (this time it was pretty spontaneous) and can continue to hone my English ;)

    Keep well pal.