Sonny Liston v Evander Holyfield

i don't think liston will stop him late, Holy will eventually be trading with Liston and that will be his demise. Plus at long range, Holy would have no answers for Liston's longer reach and jab.

Sonny would finish what Cooper, Bowe, Stewart, and Dokes started. Seeing as he is a harder puncher and better finisher then all of them, I don't see what's really wrong with my prediction

 

I never said that lower body fat makes someone stronger. Liston was probably stronger and definitely a harder puncher (he was also a lot stronger and a harder puncher than a lot other 200+ pound fighters). I said that Holyfield and Liston are the same size when you take into account Holyfield's lower body fat, which is true.

Muscle is a lot more important than just about any other component of "size" / weight, including bone. Thicker bone structure doesn't do much for you -- it doesn't provide any force behind your punches, it doesn't move your opponent around the ring, and it doesn't facilitate your own movements. If it did, the Australian aborigines would be the greatest fighters on the planet. The only real use of thicker bones is to support more muscle. And I can't see any argument for fat being helpful.

 

I believe Liston had an 84" reach and that is a significant advantage of 6" over Evander , especially for a jab based fighter like Sonny and a guy like Evander who did get hit and when hit choose to slug ....

 

GreatA,

Sonny Liston had an 84" reach

 

Thats pretty much exactly how I see it. I just dont see a way for Evander to beat Liston.
Liston was also an excellent body puncher, and once Sonny has him hurt, Evander will do what he always does, brawl back, and Sonny would annihalate him then.

 

:good

Liston was a very rare fighter indeed. A long armed fighter who was both an excellent outside and infighter. He could keep you at the end of a jab, or he could punish you inside with brutal uppercuts/hooks and his brute strength.

 

Maghoo,

Liston survived a broken nose and some huge shots off of the most fearsome puncher of the era, Cleveland Williams. He also took Nino Valdes and Mike DeJohn's best punches as he walked right through them. All 3 of these men were huge punchers and big men during that era.

What physical advantages did Liston have on Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Mike DeJohn. These guys were 6'3 + 215lb menacing punchers during that era. Do you think he intimidated these men as well? Liston walked right through these guys and murdered them early.

Sure, none of those men were anywhere near as good as holyfield, but Liston proved size does not matter. It also proved walking into Liston and trying to exchange blow for blow with him was a terrible idea.

 

I imagine much of his reach consisted of his wide shoulders and large hands, not that he did not have abnormal arm length for a man of his height.

 

I think what he meant is that Holyfield could've gone up in weight without lifting weights, purely by the fact that he barely carried any fat. Meaning, they're very comparable in size, steroids or not. Liston has the longest "reach" (arm+shoulder span) while Holyfield is taller.

But surely you will admit that Williams, DeJohn and an old Valdes are in no way as dangerous as Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe? Holyfield not only proved himself against them, he did so for several rounds/fights, whereas Liston only took Williams'/Valdes'/DeJohn's punches for a few rounds.

Well, Valdes had the clear physical disadvantage of being old, Williams was very comparable to him, and DeJohn wasn't nearly as athletically gifted.

At any rate, none of these compared to the names I mentioned above; they're soft touches compared to the likes of Bowe, Tyson and Lewis.

 

If Evander, in the words of Mike Tyson throws his "first class" counterpunches, he has a chance at stopping Liston perhaps late. I wouldn't bet on it because Liston was a natural heavyweight, Evander a beefed-up cruiserweight. Evander has to outwork Liston, stay away from his right hand power and avoid getting hit with Liston's jab-hook combination. Steroids or not, I can't see either way how Evander would be considered stronger than Liston. Holy's got the toughness and I wouldn't doubt him getting up off the floor in this one. Liston wouldn't let up like Lewis did when he gets him to the ropes. He'd measure him and pound him mercilessly.

 

Muscles is important I agree,but also structure of the human bones,ligaments.And when you take hard punch on the ribs cage you saying that bone structure is not important.Bigger muscle doesn't mean harder punch.Holyfield is much more muscular than Earnie Shavers was,but Shavers was much stronger puncher.I didn't said that fat is helpful,but also to low bodyfat percent.Fat is energy and when you go to the late rounds fat can be usefull energy.That doesn't mean that you must be fat,but Liston wasn't fat,he was perfect for me.Look at Tyson in his younger years.he had more body fat than after prison Tyson and I just don't see problem for this fact in these days.When he was more muscular with lower body fat he gassed out after 5 rounds.

 

Holyfield did not fight these men until after he was on the steroids. We don't know if the naturally trained ripped solid fluid 190lber evander holyfield could handled these men. The 217lb Holyfield was nothing but an illegal fantasy.

Sure, but the prime naturally trained Holyfield of 190-200lb never fought these men. The 217lb roided Holyfield fought these men. Evander also went 1-4 against Bowe and Lewis, on steroids. I don't think the the naturally trained Liston goes 1-4 against those men, in fact I think Liston posts a winning record against Bowe and Lewis.


With your logic, you might as well say Evander beats Joe Louis. After all, Joe Louis never tangled with monsters like Bowe, Lewis, and Tyson. Baer, Walcott, Schmeling soft touches compared to those guys.

 

Insofar as stronger ribs are harder to break, I agree. Then again, fighters don't break each other's ribs that often anyway.

Ligaments and tendons also strengthen from weightlifting.

Again, I never said that there's a direct correlation between muscle size and punching power or strength. I was replying to SuzieQ's assertion that Holyfield was too "small". I doubt that SuzieQ meant that Holyfield isn't fat enough to fight Liston -- but if Suzie wasn't referring to fat or bone, what was he referring to? It must be muscle, unless Suzie believed that Liston's larger organs would carry him to victory...

Also, muscle size isn't the only variable. A muscle's composition (fast/slow twitch fibers) and technique are important.

Shavers naturally punched harder than Holyfield to begin with, so it isn't a fair comparison. All other things being equal, though, Shavers with modern weightlifting would hit harder than Shavers without modern weightlifting.

 

i think everyone is assuming evander fights a stupid fight. granted, he brawled a LOT but he was capable of outboxing and moving if needed. not a guarantee but he wasn't a complete brawler and i see him being tentative to bull in after listons jabs rock his head back (much like foreman did) and adopting a similar strategy