Sonny Liston v Evander Holyfield

Holyfield is not a natural 215lber like Liston was. That's all I am saying.

 

Were they, though?

 

Evander's heart was too big not to brawl. You watch the bowe fights? Evander couldn't help but brawl every chance he got. It was so stupid. Bowe was good, but not on Liston's level as a puncher.

 

I think other than durability, Floyd Patterson was very comparable to Evander Holyfield in punching power, speed, combination punching, and skill. We all know what Liston did to Floyd. Holyfield had much better durability and was slightly bigger, so he lasts a bit longer.

 

Well, non-roided early heavyweight Holyfield + cheeseburgers would be the same weight and body fat % as Liston. He'd also be an inch taller.

Also, what is it about Liston's "natural" weight that makes it qualitatively better than Holyfield's weight? I can understand that Liston could have been bigger than Holyfield if he had the same training techniques, but how does it that help Liston in this time machine bout? He doesn't get brownie points for potential muscle in the ring.

 

i agree except for the 2nd fight. a lot of discipline and a near perfect gameplan against an opponent who frankly had his number.

bowe was nowhere near liston in punching, that's a given.

 

Actually, I'd say that Patterson was more skilled than Evander. But he was also a short-limbed swarmer, while Holy was a mobile counterpuncher.

The difference is that Holyfield dehydrated down to cruiserweight, while Patterson bulked up to it. Patterson was also a couple inches shorter.

 

Holyfield took steroids. :good Unacceptable and I think he should be penalized severely in his all time standing for it. Holyfield in my opinion was one of the greatest 190lbers who ever lived. Fast, Fluid, Capable... but he turned himself into a 217lb roidhead..it was nothing more than a fantasy. You could see the veins popping out of his head as he took punches from 240lb monsters. Steroided freak, he probably didn't even feel the pain.

 

Yes, I know he took steroids. And yes, it's fair to ask whether his all time rankings should suffer.

But the steroids didn't turn him into a 217 pound monster overnight. The early heavyweight version of Holyfield was basically just a rehydrated version of cruiserweight Holyfield. He weighed 202 pounds with very low body fat, which puts him -- even the early version of him -- in Liston's size category. That was my point.

 

---

 

I don't agree that Shavers would hit harder today with modern weightlifting.Heavy bag is more important for developing hard punch than weightlifting.Why today with all steroids,weightlifting,there are not fighters who hit strong as Shavers,Liston or Foreman.They are bigger,more muscular but they just don't have that punch.If muscles are so important why Klitschkos,Samuel Peter and others don't hit hard as Shavers.Look at Joe Frazier,he was 205pound in his prime and his weightlifting results were very weak,and he was devastating puncher.Speed kills and with too many muscles fighters lose speed and with speed they lose punching power.(WEIGHTXSPEEDXSPEED).

 

Steroids improved Holyfield's durability, big time. It was like he didn't even feel pain in the late 1990s anymore. When I watch Holyfield, I only watch him pre 1990, I love that Holyfield. I refuse to watch any holyfield after 1992...it's nothing but a steroid induced mirror image of holyfield.

 

Many types of weightlifting improve muscles' contraction speed and force. How do you know that modern fighters don't hit as hard as Foreman or Shavers...?

 

I'm just saying that late 80's Holyfield's size shouldn't prevent him from competing with Liston. It's certainly fair to argue that he would lose for other reasons.

 

I don't think being "bigger" or gaining extra weight would have been in Liston's best interest anyway. His best weight was around 212 lbs, and his feet were still stuck in the mud. At 230, he would have been as slow as Valuev. There's a difference between the ability to "gain" weight and that of being able to "carry" weight... Sonny was not meant to be a super heavyweight.