that's the thinking of Ali - he knew in his head that power means fuk all if you cannot hit the target. his style was out-speeding your opponent without being hit.
Well, I don´t think Liston knocks out Marciano. Marciano had a very good if not great chin and a very underated defense. Liston could stop Marciano on cuts but he wouldn´t knock him out. Could Liston knock Marciano down? For sure lesser fighter did and I see KDs beeing the only way for Liston to collect enough points to beat the Rock by decision. I think Liston would dominate the early rounds, even score one, two KDs but Marciano get´s up and becomes stronger as the fight goes on. His punch output gets up and Liston starts to crumble mentally but still is dangerous and game. Marciano clear UD 15, rounds 9 to 6. Now let´s take a short look of Liston´s chances against the other atg swarmers: - Dempsey: Clay proved that fast feet can trouble Liston and Dempsey had very fast feet, together with his erratic head movement which would make it very hard for the slow Liston to hit him it spells trouble for Sonny. Dempsey KO4 Liston - Patterson: we saw what happened. - Frazier: I wrote this in the thread "Liston-Frazier 1969". When both are in their prime I think this gameplan would work out even better and Sonny stops Frazier in the mid-rounds. - Tyson: Well, Tyson´s style is somewhat similar to Patterson´s with the peek-a-boo defence and fast hands but his head movement is a mix of Dempsey´s and Frazier´s. Not as erratic as Dempsey´s but also not as regular as Frazier´s. And he starts very fast. Both had that auro of a very bad man about them and both had some mental issues. Pick´em fight imo with a slight advantage for Liston - Liston is 2-2 against atgs, Tyson is 2-3.
marciano would knock the rock out in 2 with a few knock-downs. marciano's big heart wouldn't be enough against a 210lb wrecking ball with fists as big as steam hammers. the fact that rocky's reach is 16" shorter than charles sonny's wouldn't help him either. its a mis-match and rocky would struggle to get past sonny's jab. there'd be blood and snot everywhere and only the snot would belong to sonny
Chris, Rocky was between 25 - 30 pounds lighter than Liston, not 10 pounds. I'd be more concerned about the reach because if Sonny keeps him outside with the jab and that huge reach advantage he would cut him up pretty good pretty early. It's very hard to fight with blood in your eyes. While I favor Liston I do feel Rocky would be a very live underdog in this match up. If Rocky could get inside by keeping low and avoid early cuts and land a few early it could be a different fight. Rocky definately has the power to hurt anyone and the longer it went the better Rocky's shot. Again I stress cuts are the think that concern me most.
Rocky has been on the canvas less than 99% of most fighters. I see knockdowns in this one. But if it didn't happened, it wouldn't surprise me. Walcott and Moore were quite more crafty, cunning, and precise punchers, albeit they didn't hit in the league of a Sonny Liston in terms of power. But that's the type of power Marciano would expect. It would be there for him to see and know, and he's willing to go down that dark road. Hey, he might get dropped. But no way Liston KO's him. Marciano toughness, determination, chin, and defensive ability will keep him weathering the storm and evading some of Liston's blows. I'll write up my piece on the matchup. But your implication about the Marciano knockdowns are a bit misleading. It's like me claiming that because Martin KOed Liston, so would Rocky. Or since Marshall broke his jaw, Marciano would do the same. There's more to it...
can't believe that some people, who normally have very intelligent threads outhere, really see marciano winning over liston. what is/are the things that marciano have over liston ? stamina and that's all. don't say liston has no heart. the man boxed with a broken jaw. that is tough (i broke mine twice so i know what i am talking about). al other aspects of boxing liston has the upper hand. a longer reach, more power, better ring generalship. a better chin. much more accuracy in his punches. marciano is overrated. if you see him fight look how much of his punches miss his opponents. this one wouldn't go past the 8th round. or rocky gets KO'd or the ref stops the fight.
You'll never admit that Frazier would be Sonny's easiest opponent out of those fighters. That's what I believe. But you'll just write off the Rock and praise Frazier. Rock doesn't have the movement or defense. It's nonsense. In fact, his low rolling crouch would be better fit. He'd get UNDER the jab of Liston (A thing short fighters should do), and roll to counter. Plus his awkwardness and punching out of all angles and superior durability, stamina, and two-fisted power make it seem obvious to me that he's a better matchup. Frazier head-movement was good but repetitive, and Liston's jab would eat through him more often then it would for a lower target. Frazier weighs more, but is he really stronger? Does he hit harder? Is he going to out-box Liston. It won't be pretty, but I favor Rocky's style over Liston for the reasons I mentioned. But I won't go off-topic as I have to make my post on this fight for Marciano vs Liston. Of course, you couldn't just enter a thread and answer the question with bringing up Frazier or responding to a poster that talked about how swarmers will lose to him. Okay, maybe just maybe I would have done the same thing. I'd like to think I show a bit more reserve, though.
when liston fought leotis martin he was so way way past his prime (almost 40 years old) how can you bring that fight up. where talking about a prime rocky and a prime sonny
Well, as to no surprise I suppose. But in this matchup I predict a Rocky win. I predict a win, and I won't predict how he wins. I think Rocky's low center of gravity and crouch keep him from getting hit with Liston's jab. I think he gets low and inside and wins the fight in the trenches in inside quarters. Liston got the 84 inch reach, and Marciano has the T-Rex Arms. Marciano finds his way inside I think at some point and his low center of gravity and short reach have him throwing bombs. Liston power becomes smother, and he can't get off as much or as often. My main reasoning for picking Rocky is I think that Liston won't KO him. I don't think he can, actually. A TKO would be possible, but I don't see that happening. Cuts are a concern, but not as much as some might suggest. Marciano was never in any significant danger because of cuts from punches. That's right, only an elbow almost cost his title. There will be blood... I'm sure both men would be bleeding. I give Liston the first few rounds. Liston starts of great, and Marciano isn't the best starter. Marciano does have an ever so slightly edge in hand-speed but that's completely nullified on the outside by the 15+ inch reach advantage by Liston. Liston's jab is grazing Rocky and finding its mark enough. Liston keeps Rocky at bay for the first 3 rounds. In fact, sweeping the opener. Tide starts turning though. I think from rounds 3-9, Rocky will up at least half of them. Now, Liston's biggest and best arsenal on offensive is his jab, and overhand right. His uppercut, is also a thing of beauty. Surprisingly, I think Liston's head-movement bothers Rocky on the early stages. And that bothering happens on the rare times Rocky finds himself inside. I don't think much about Liston's overhand right in this one. Rocky's so low, shorter, that it isn't viable. It won't be in play for this one. Liston will rely heavily on the jab, and mix it up with a straight right hand and trying the uppercut. Liston's best bet is to use that uppercut with Rocky coming in. Rocky is going to forward, but cautiously. He won't walk in like he did against Moore. Liston's severe power is known. Marciano's durability and chin at his peak was better than in his last fight, anyway. This even gets underrated now. For Liston to win he needs to fight off the backfoot for as long as he can. He needs to bang and break Rocky down. Unfortunately, Liston fights great off the back foot. Better than most Heavyweight sluggers, which is why he is considered such a versatile force. If he busts up Rocky, I can see a late TKO from cuts or ref stoppage. This gameplan is to back up, jab, and try duping Marciano into exchanging for long-distances. In my honest opinion, though. I think Liston stops retreating around the 3rd or 4th round. Liston doesn't fight off the back fight for extended periods. He met Williams face to face and eventually broke him down and pushed him backwards. I think his ego, manhood, and belief in his power/jab will have him start standing toe to toe with Rocky. Bad move. From this point, Rocky's body-work and punching power take a toll. Both mean are bloodied, but the final stages see Rocky cleaning up round 9-12 to even up the fight. The Championship rounds see a broken down mentally Liston. Liston quits on his stool. Marciano wins. Both fighters have fought a hellacious war. Both fighters aren't the same. I rather have the 52-53 version of Marciano in this matchup than the latter version we see against Charles/Moore. I think the more calculated Marciano would have the better chance. This Marciano is smarter (Due to being more calculated), and more defensive, and harder to hit than it appears. This version is more apt to losing early rounds and being out-pointed. No fear, this won't happen against Liston. Only cutey fighters like Walcott will pose this problem. I feel that guys that stand and trade with Marciano are tailor made for him. The Charles, Walcott's are the ones that move away and try to use their boxing ability and craftiness that are troubling for Rocky. Guys that go mano o mano most likely lose. Obviously there are different circumstances for everything, though. I think the low center, low target, awkwardness, and punching from all angles can beffudle Liston. Liston dealing with adversity, whether it be a mental fortitude issue or an issue on how to adapt. Liston just didn't like it when he didn't have you in the palm of his hands. At some point he is trouble, mentally, physically, strategically, and even stylistically. He won't have the answer. The power of Marciano would be a power that he has never been hit with before (At this point. A peak Liston hasn't sparred with Foreman). The tenacity... Rocco Francis Marchegiano will find his mark against Liston. He may get dropped, he may even drop Liston. But Liston doesn't have the fortitude or will to win this kind of a scrap up. In my mind, at one point or another I think he just says... **** it and quits. I can be honest though. In this matchup I'm picking with my mind and emotions. But not just my emotions.
