Sonny Liston vs Big Daddy Bowe

It's not as one sided as Bowe just ducked Lewis and wanted no part of him. He made some offers that Lewis turned down. The fact of the matter is that Bowe was the undisputed, undefeated champ. He was the one calling the shots and Lewis was given good offers for the undisputed title that he should have jumped at.



"Newman said Lewis had been offered two chances to fight Bowe for the title: a guaranteed $3 million with a possible payoff of $15 million more for a first defense if he beat Bowe, or $3 million to fight an opponent of his choosing plus $9 million and a share of the promotion for a followup fight with Bowe.
Lewis, after initially turning down an offer of $3 million, said he was willing to take the fight. But by then, Bowe had changed his mind."


"L.A. Times Archives
July 21, 1993 12 AM PT
FROM ASSOCIATED PRESS
LONDON — Lennox Lewis, the World Boxing Council heavyweight champion, has rejected a deal to fight Riddick Bowe for the undisputed title.

“The deal was $21 million for Bowe and a 50-50 split if the final purse went above $32 million,” Frank Maloney, who represents Lewis, said Tuesday. Lewis was guaranteed $11 million.

“We declined that, and the Bowe fight won’t happen until the summer of 1994,” Maloney said.

In a statement released through his manager, Rock Newman, Bowe, the International Boxing Federation and World Boxing Assn. champion, said Lewis is a “pitiful disgrace to the manly art of boxing. . . . Lennox Lewis is a pompous, arrogant, phony British punk who is simply afraid to fight me.”

 

Can you give specific examples of Bowe being effective at mid-range and on the outside? That “good at all ranges” label fits Liston far more convincingly.

“I don't think Liston would relish sharing a ring with him” — that feels like a baseless assumption. Even if someone buys into the idea that Liston gets discouraged when things aren’t going his way (which doesn’t hold up under much scrutiny), why would that apply here? He wouldn’t be dealing with an elusive target like Ali — he’d be facing a guy he couldn't miss if he tried.

 

Like I said - purse bids. The challenger has a right to reject champions offer if he thinks he can get more out of the purse bids. Bowe ducked Lewis by dumping the belt.

In this case you can argue Lennox ducked Bowe. But I only referenced the 1992 negotiations. Both men also signed to fight in 1996, but Lewis lost to McCall.

 

This video is quite good and highlights Bowe at the 4.45 mark. You can see he has an exceptional jab and very good skills at all ranges. Liston is also featured in the vid. I'm surprised this vid hasn't got more views.

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Bowe had the Holyfield fight lined up which was a much more lucrative fight. He was always going to choose that rather than go to purse bids and lose control of everything if Lewis won the purse bid. In Lewis' position he knew that the opportunity was to take the offer for the undisputed title or wait for Bowe to vacate. Bowe was already saying he would vacate the belt and go the Holyfield route which was for more money. It was a good offer from Bowe and I'm not saying Lewis made the wrong move by stalling and waiting for the vacant belt but the narrative around it is pretty untrue. He had the Bowe fight right there on a plate for all the marbles and turned it down. The reason that the offer was what it was was because Bowe was going to make big money vs Holyfield and was the clear A-side. Lewis had to take B-side money or sit it out and go for the vacant belt and then demand more money for what was a very difficult fight vs Bowe. He probably made the right move.

Boxing experts would have overwhelmingly picked Bowe to beat Lewis at this time. There is no reason for Bowe to be scared or ducking Lewis. He was handling him quite well in the Olympic fight. He got caught but it was an early stoppage. Bowe was hurt a few times even in the amateurs much worse than what he was hurt vs Lewis in that fight.

 

Bowe had a very good jab and a hellacious uppercut. I think a fight with Liston, who I rate much higher as an ATG AND H2H would be an educated brawl and I think Bowe is too athletic, too quick and doesn't have enough quit in him for Liston to work his magic. I have Liston in my top 3 H2H man but sometimes styles make fights and I think Bowe's fast but loose unorthodox brawling style is a very good foil for Liston's superb fundamentals. Peak Bowe won't fall apart from a shellacking, too brave/stupid. I don't make this an easy fight for him to win. I probably give Liston 1 fight out of 3, but I think Bowe at his best had the engine, the heart and all the ranges covered to be his kryptonite

 

Holyfield fight happened a year after the first one. In the meanwhile, Bowe had 2 fights, that didn't pay him the amount of money that 1 Lewis fight would. Champion's obligation is to fight his mandatories. He didn't do it, and dumped the belt instead, That's a duck. Nobody says he was afraid of him. Just like Lewis ducked Chris Byrd looking for the rematch with Mike Tyson for more money. But when there's a mandatory on the line A/B side stuff doesn't matter. That's what purse bids are for - to ensure the challenger gets the best deal.

 

He ran through Williams and Hides power was a problem but Listons power wouldn't be a problem ? wtf ? Lol. Hide had a weaker chin than Liston but despite getting knocked down he outboxed Bowe off punches landed. Won the first 2 rounds easy

So people explaining fighters technique, their stylistical attributes and why they had the success they did in their respective era doesn't matter to you ? Lmfao Stay ignorant.

I disagree. Liston dismantling Patterson, Folley and Williams in 3 rounds is more impressive than Holyfield outboxing Mercer in a close fight. Holyfield was never a puncher even when he fought smaller guys like Liston did, so don't bring the size excuse up, hard hitting cruiserweights can have huge power Hide is an example and in Bowes own words Hide hit him the hardest thats why he was out on his feet a couple times in the fight. Professional fighters experience matters but Foreman isn't the person who says Liston was a massive puncher and hit them incredibly hard

You're making a stance that Holyfield hit harder than Liston correct ?

 

Liston. Sonny hit notably harder than anyone Bowe faced except maybe Lewis. Liston's jab would mess Bowe up the way Golota's did...except Sonny's was more powerful.

I see Bowe giving Liston trouble on the inside, but getting aggravated at being outjabbed and generally overpowered punch-wise (and by a shorter dude). Bowe lands more but he isn't exactly Cleveland Williams in that department.

Bowe shows himself to be a true champion, the rounds after two each feature sections where people think the fight should have been stopped. But Bowe hangs in there.

After 5 Bowe is losing forward momentum, he keeps looping and missing his big right and his self-adored jab is getting its pooper spanked by Sonny's.

He goes down three times in the 7th and the ref stops it.

 

Highlight clips are deceptive; you can find footage of Ali working the body if you look long enough, but it doesn't make him a career body puncher.

The reason the video misses the mark is the fundamental contradiction in its analysis: it praises Bowe’s 'excellent' outside game, yet nearly every clip shown features him moving forward to close the distance. His outside skills were shallow at best, a fact shown in his struggles with Briggs and Tubbs and one that was flat-out exposed by Golota.

It’s also very telling that out of the seven traits the video highlights for Bowe, 'Inside Fighting' is ranked as his number one strength, while a true 'Outside Game' is nowhere to be found on the list. If his outside skills were "very good" it would've made it somewhere on this list or at least have been an honorable mention.

 

You’re still bringing up completely irrelevant points to my jab argument, but anyway, Liston didn’t have half of Herbie’s handspeed and Herbie’s power was actually proven unlike Liston’s. All this is still irrelevant as the main point was about jabs and you changed it into something completely different.

Thats not what you are doing at all.

I didn’t say anything about overall boxing skill, I talked about jab and power. Mercer had a better jab than all those guys and was about 50 times tougher than all of them COMBINED. And Holyfield was very much a puncher at CW.

Yes and Im tired of pretending otherwise. Literally nothing on tape suggests Liston to be this huge puncher. He didn’t stop or drop anybody particularly tough like Holyfield did, and he was fighting smaller guys on average.

 

Again, you've demonstrated zero evidence of his mid-range and outside game. The one range Bowe was elite in, was on the inside and even here, Liston was superior imo. For all his prowess on the inside, his non-existent defense exposed him to plenty of return fire. Liston's superiority on the outside was even more obvious.

And the “too brave for his own good” point doesn’t really help your case. Bravery isn’t an asset when you’re as defensively exposed as Bowe was—especially against someone with Liston’s power and precision. If anything, that mindset works against him here. He had a habit of not clinching when hurt, and with that kind of defensive liability against Sonny, it’s almost inevitable he’d find himself in serious trouble.

Bowe had a very good jab yes, but Liston's was much better and far more versatile. Depending on the use, he could employ it as a feint, to obscure the vision of his opponents, appear to overreach to create a false sense of invulnerability to lure his opponents in, employ it as a power punch itself, and so much more.

 

“Obscure the vision” as if it wasnt the chemicals on his gloves that caused that lmao

 

So Hides power was proven but Listons wasn't ? Wtf are you smoking ? Is this because of your arbitrary "rigorous testing" lol. Liston is better at controlling range and was considered a big puncher in his era and KO'd every ranked hw he faced besides Machen thats a fact. Whatever else you have to say about Listons power in comparison is purely of your own opinion, not one shared by Listons actual opponents.

Then you don't know what tf your looking at, if you can't see anything on film that's a personal problem Liston had a great jab, was defensively solid, hurt people with fewer punches than Holyfield usually did regardless of the level and size of opposition. Liston didn’t struggle to KO the few bigger guys he faced like you're trying to insinuate

A bunch of BS Mercer was tougher than Alex Stewart does this automatically mean Holyfield would drop Alex Stewart ? Holyfield had power but usually knocked guys out off accumulation and not with clubbing punches like Liston. Foreman considered Liston to be a bigger puncher than Evander, he fought both of them. Wepner fought Foreman and put Listons power in that category, actually called Liston the hardest puncher he ever faced and got his skull busted up

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These assessments mean more than anything you have to say, that's the end of it

Not to mention Holyfield dropped Bowe anyway.

 

a slim 235 lbs