Sonny Liston vs Floyd Patterson and Ingemar Johansen in the same night.

Ingo was not out cold, he got up at the count of 3 about.

 

Is there a substantial argument here?

Liston handily beat many fast, mobile fighters but he was generally smart enough to stalk his more powerful opponents and break them down.

A simple "Machen underestimated Ingo" explains nothing. Machen got caught by Ingo's power. You also seem to be estimating what powerful puncher he was. Liston would not make this mistake. He would surely remember that little Marty Marshall put his ass down and broke his jaw.

I'm not predicting an Ingo victory, just saying that he has the power to earn Liston's respect and delay the inevitable.

 

His two top big powerful opponents Cleveland Williams 2x, and Nino Valdez did not make it into the 4th round. So I wouldnt say liston broke them down as much as he slaughtered them. Ingemar at 6'0 195lb also was by no means big, he was the same size as floyd patterson. I really see liston taking Ingemar out early, especially with ingemars suspect chin.

 

If it's Patterson first, then Johansson, then Liston works up a mild sweat taking out Patterson in one round and is essentially none the worse for wear when he gets to Johansson, probably then winning by a KO within six. If Johansson goes first, I imagine things could be slightly more interesting, as I think he wasn't quite as terrible a match-up against Liston as Patterson was and would be likely to last a few rounds and maybe have moments before going out, which could weaken Liston and maybe give Patterson a chance to get a foothold in their fight.

 

I don't think either of these guys hit harder than Ingo. Williams constantly gets rated as some "what-if" prospect denied greatness, when in fact he was an also-ran in a mediocre era.

Furthermore, neither he nor especially Valdez were sturdy fighters. Valdez was KD's many, many times in his career, if memory serves.

Regardless, I think we are splitting hairs on things none of us can ever know.

 

Did Brian London really knock Ingo out cold ?

I've heard this is a bull**** story, and that reports say Ingo got up during the count.
I dont know what to believe.
Anyone here actually SEEN the fight ?

 

Marciano_Frazier posted a thread a while back saying Ingo, according to reports, actually got up BEFORE the bell sounded, got up at "four" or "five", and was on his feet when the fight ended.

The idea that he was literally "saved by the bell" would then be based on a misunderstanding.

Janitor, have you seen the fight ?
Has anyone got a contemporary fight report ?

 

Valdez was durable. He only suffered one knockout loss during his best years........and was only knocked out very young and earlier in his career. From 1952 to 1961 he fought outstanding competition and was only knocked out 3 times.


Cleveland Williams had a strong chin. Only fighter to stop a prime cleveland williams was none other than sonny liston, He could not keep cleveland down for the 10 count.


Ingemar Johannson on the other hand, had weak whiskers. Feather Fisted Brian London Floored Ingemar who had to be saved by the bell. Brian London!!!!!

Thats your opinion. Ingemar could really crack with that right hand, but so could Big Cats Left Hook and Valdez right hand on film. Until you have seen Williams and Valdez best knockouts on film(which I have) I suggest you keep your opinion to yourself. It must be noted Valdez and Williams had 4" height and 20 extra pounds of weight on Ingemar. I think Williams hit as hard as ingemar.

Its my opinion Listons era was a strong one

 

You can pull out the London fight on Ingo just like I could pull out the little Marshall fights (the one where Sonny was KD'd and the one where he got his mandible cracked), or the little Satterfield fight for Williams. It's just selective argumentation.

I think it is a stretch to argue that Johannson was fragile based on one fight and ignore all those KO's and KD's on Valdez's record. Again, just a little bias there.

In regards to Sonny's era, I think the one previous and the one after were stronger, but these are subjective judgements as fighter's usually only carry their prime through a select few years. As for Sonny himself, he was a great fighter, no doubt, and in his prime would pose problems for anyone in the adjoining era's. I just think that during his own era, after him, there is a precipitous drop-off in quality.

 

Ingemar was fully matured when he fought london. Liston was under 200lb in his 6th professional fight when he took on # 7 ranked lightheavyweight Marshall, who only scored a FLASH knockdown for 1 count. London had Ingo badly hurt.

Valdez fought far more punchers than ingemar johansson did. Johansson was knocked out twice by patterson the only puncher he fought. Pattersons camp ducked Valdez.

 

Perhaps, but don't forget that Ingo was much quicker afoot than Patterson or anyone else Liston fought other than Ali and perhaps Machen, and in fact seems to be faster afoot than Machen in the film of the two in the ring together. Good lateral movement gives Johansson a chance to drag this one out a bit and Liston would have to be very careful. I think Ingo has the style to give Liston a tough fight, and with that big right, he certainly has at least a shot at an upset.

 

He was out of shape, at the end of line when he fought London and still won the fight. He was on his feet when the bell rang according to all accounts.

Liston was 22, weighed 204 lbs., in his 8th professional fight, when he fought Marshall the first time. He was KD'd by the otherwise light-hitting Marshall in his 10th fight.

Your bias makes your arguments completely transparent, but at least get your facts straight.

Valdez made guys look like punchers because he hit the canvas so often, about a dozen times during his career.

Regarding Ingo's career, Henry Cooper was nothing if not a puncher. Machen had decent clout. Patterson certainly hit hard. His prime on the top level was not long or deep.

But remember, what Johansson did to Machen was not duplicated by Liston, Frazier, Quarry, Williams or any of the murderer's row he faced.

 

I had a contemporary report posted on the thread about this match... is it still there, or have we lost the posts from that time period now? Regardless, I assure you that the newspaper accounts are very clear in stating that Johansson was up at four as the bell sounded to end the fight. Johansson being out cold for minutes is a complete myth, apparently a bit of a merging between the endings of the second Patterson fight and this one.

 

Here we go- the relevant text in the Associated Press article reads, "The count had reached four fall and Johansson had just lurched to his feet when the final bell rang."