Sonny Liston vs Ingemar Johannson 1959

The relevance of this escapes me. Liston faced Machen during the best period of his carer. All he could get was a decision. Ingo took Machen out in the first round. What exactly does this mean in the grand scheme of things?

 

Ok, so we come to the part when we start to claim people have said things they haven't now? He's that important to you?

I haven't commentated on his power at all in this thread, but he clearly hit very hard. But as Klompton said, it doesn't mean that much if you don't get the KO's. Ingo was the more dangerous puncher imo. Definitely the more proven.

 

That Ingo probably was the more dangerous puncher.

 

Sonny had an excellent chin. I think Johanson will be busy running from Liston to get his power shots off. Johansson wasnt a runner. So he wont know how to run. Liston will catch him with something the will buzz him. Then Igamar will stand and fight.
Then he gets knocked out.

 

ETM I thought you were a good poster but man you're slow. We're no longer debating Liston VS Ingo. It has now turned into "Williams was a featherfist and anyone who says otherwise dksab." Try to keep up.

 

No. This thread has primarily turned into people taking shots at Wiilliams instead of the subject at hand. You, Chokelab, and Klompton are the primary culprits. Even other posters have noticed.

I don't think Williams was great at all. As a matter of fact, I have my doubts he fits in a top 100 Heavies of all time list! However, he's much better than you, Choklab, and Klompton, would ever give him credit for it.

 

OK I thought you were trying to criticize Williams for his performance against Machen. My apologies. I still disagree that Ingo was more dangerous (at least on the sole basis of their performance against one opponent).

 

Fair enough. It got a bit sidetracked.

 

Ultimately no matter how hard a fighter hits, in the grand scheme of things he needs to do it at the highest level to be considered.
Williams although possessing good power just fell short in that department.
Frank Bruno was the same. He knocked over all the B level guys and fringe contenders he fought, and although he hurt them all, he couldn’t put a dent on Tyson, Lewis, Witherspoon and Smith.
Anyway, back to the point, I think Liston takes this but at this stage I think it’s not a given.
Although a fairly limited fighter there’s no doubt that the Johansson right hand was an extremely potent weapon.
What always strikes me about the Patterson and Machen fights is how hard Floyd and Eddie hit the canvas on the first knockdowns, even Liston would have to be very wary.
Overall though I just think Liston has simply too much in his arsenal and all round toughness for Ingo.

 

I agree with this. Overall Sonny is better. There is only one year of his career where I think Ingo can conceivably win this and a lot more years where Sonny would have had the edge.

You are correct about how hard Floyd and Eddie went down. What was unique about this was these were the best two heavyweights in the world who had never been knocked out before. It was quite amazing. They never saw it coming.

 

Except Miteff was also ranked by the NBA

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SBS19610502.1.7&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1

 

None of this is even germane to my point of how you are trying to characterize this fight as some feather in Williams' cap. Williams did not beat Machen. Period. Johannson damn near knocked his head off. Williams didnt display his supposed power against Machen. Johannson did. Williams never exhibited his supposed power against any of the contenders he fought. Period. He was great at knocking out tomato cans but couldnt knock out anyone with talent much less beat them on a consistent basis.

 

Exactly. This was my initial point. That Liston would be favored but Johansson had the kind of scary power that could turn a fight completely on its head. Theres amateur footage of Johannson knocking guys clear across the ring completely limp as a dishrag dead. His right hand power was simply unreal. He didnt have much more beyond that and a good ability to lull you to sleep waiting for it but when he finally threw it if it connected solidly you were in trouble and the thing is he could do that at the highest level of the sport. He proved it against two of the best fighters of his era. Thats indisputable. All this bull**** talk about Williams is besides that point but a couple of clowns who havent seen half of the Williams fights I have arent going to convince me that he was some world class puncher because he wasnt. I dont care if Foreman, Liston, and Chuvalo said otherwise because none of those guys lost to him. Again, if he hit so hard that you stood him in front of a machine that measured punching power and beat every fighter in history for delivering powerful punches at the end of the day it doesnt ****ing matter because that machine doesnt hit back. He could never reproduce that power in front of a top rated opponent who actually hit back and isnt that kind of what a discussion about this supposedly powerful puncher is centered on? We arent debating whether Williams could generate more pounds per square inch of power we are debating whether he showed that power against the best he fought as Johannson did. Willliams never did that. If Williams knocking out Miteff impresses you as some incredible feat that says a lot more about how you are easily impressed than it does about how hard Williams could punch.

 

Even in 1959, I'd favor Sonny to beat Ingo. Ingo has the big right hand, but Liston is bigger, stronger and had a very good jab. And a big right hand too.

 

Texas had its own culture in boxing at that time, Houston especially. Williams, Roy Harris, and Tod Herring are three examples of heavyweights who piled up big winning records in Texas, but were unable to sustain their momentum elsewhere. Harris was even able to land a title shot never having fought outside of Texas. His big win was a questionable decision over Willie Pastrano there. There was no TV for that fight or any of his other fights, so basically when he fought Patterson no one had ever seen him fight outside of Texas. So Texas fighters were sheltered and well protected, especially in Houston.

So, in answer to your four points: 1) The judge was from Texas. 2) Without going into what you mean by a person of "significance," did any person of significance not from Texas score the Machen fight for Williams? You mentioned the AP report earlier. I bet dollars to donuts that the AP report was written by a Texas-based stringer since it was the custom of the AP to rely on locals to write the wire reports. 3) I don't know that anyone polled the people in the crowd, but seeing as how the fight was held in Texas, my bet is that the vast majority of those present were Williams fans from Texas. 4) Williams might not have lost to Machen, but he was unable to win a decision over him in his home town of Houston.

Just to remind you, this posting is from your so-called Tyson fan boy. I have a long memory.