Sonny Liston vs Ingemar Johannson 1959

yes you are correct in saying Sonny is marginally bigger, marginally stronger and had a very good Jab.

But in 1959 Sonny wasn’t quite where he needed to be. Sonny was just 12 months into his comeback after the two year sentence. He basically started over from zero in 1958.

Listons 1959 opponents were a lower level to Ingos victims that year. Sonny was fighting Howard King, Willie Besmanoff and a declining nino Valdes. It’s a lower level.

by 1959 Sonny has not yet met guys like Machen Foley and Harris Where as Ingo had slready annexed those astonishing knockouts over much better fighters by this point.

By the time Sonny reached that level, Ingo was already champion, and quite honestly once Sonny stepped up to these kinds of wins they do not eclipse what Ingo did beating Machen and Patterson in 1959.

Sonny still needed to fight Patterson himself to match this and by then Ingo was finished.

 

no, nobody has, I don't think it was filmed, cuz if it was, I would have watched it long ago. Why, do you have it?

 

I brought up many of the same points, and people didn't believe me. Even George Chuvalo beat a WAY past-it Williams, and he said Williams was one of the biggest hitters he ever faced, and he faced everybody: Zora Folley, Patterson, Bonavena, Frazier, Quarry, Foreman, and many others.

 

Machen was green vs. Ingo tho, he was prime vs. Williams

 

the Machen that fought Williams would have KILLED Ingo

 

Sonny all day long.

 

I think who wins the match boils down to who can survive. Everyone knows Liston and Johansson could both punch. But Johannsson got hurt vs. Patterson, and he didn't come back. Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley both gave Liston tough fights, and he came back to win those.

 

Liston had eight wins in 1958 and in 1959 beat DeJohn, Cleveland Williams, Valdes and Besmanoff, all of those 1959 wins by knockout, stoppage or retirement.
Ingo only had 1 fight in 1959, the title winning performance over Patterson.

Styles makes fights and Sonny was an intimidating presence. Unless Liston is careless or casual, I don't think Ingo can score decisively or heavily enough to put Liston on the back foot and failing that, he loses imo. Sonny had a better chin than Floyd.

I'd take Sonny to stop Ingo in 1959.

 

If he said that here, he'd be told he dksab. The hate some have for Williams (especially Choklab and to a slightly lesser extent Klompton) is shocking to say the least.

 

Machen was looking for a rematch with Ingo which Ingo wanted absolutely no part of. Machen spent $25,000 chasing Ingo and was given the runaround by him and his team.

 

"I spent a fortune trying to get a rematch with Johansson" "it cost me personally $25,000 to get him into court, and the judge threw out the case."

"we thought we had an iron-clad contract for a rematch. Unfortunately, it was not signed by his manager, Edwin Ahlquist. We tried to get Johannson's signature. He kept stalling us, and stalling, and finally at the last minute he didn't show up saying he was ill."

"it was a long-drawn-out court case. I paid for lawyers in San Francisco and NY. I made 8 trips to NY living high on the hog each time. "Why not" I thought our case as a cinch. I even paid $5,000 to a swede just to get him to testify and then all he dad was hurt us. Finally we lost. The judge ruled Ahlquist wasn't Johansson's manager at all. He was just an advisor and all we had was a meaningless piece of paper."

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/50849107/the-los-angeles-times/

 

1. He'd lost close decisions in Texas that could've went his way if a hometown bias did indeed exist.

2. Is it not possible that the AP felt Williams genuinely won? Had they scored the fight for Machen, I guarantee many would cite this as evidence Machen was robbed of a win.

3. https://www.newspapers.com/clip/50880006/the-bend-bulletin/ "Williams the no. 5 contender felt he had turned in an upset. Most of the crowd of 10,000 partial perhaps to the hometown favorite and one judge agreed."

4. According to the majority who saw it, he did win the decision.

That being said, I've obviously never watched fight, and I can't say a robbery occured, nor did I (despite Klompton's claims) but I do find the above significant.

 

I believe it was filmed. I think a poster here had footage of it and uploaded it on youtube, which unfortunately got taken down. Will take a look.

 

Green when he faced Ingo? No, I'd say he was hitting his peak at that time.

 

please do, been looking for years myself