Sonny Liston vs Ingemar Johannson 1959

I take it back, I do think he was in his peak period, but he didn't have the experience and the know-how that is more evident in some of his 60s fights

 

My opinion differs from yours. Machen was rated No. 1 by the NBA and No. 2 (behind Folley with whom he just fought a draw) at the time he fought Johansson, ratings which I believe, he never achieved again afterward. I think he was never the same self-confident and capable fighter that he had been prior to the Johansson fight.

 

Yeah I wouldn't say he was green either. I think he was just reckless and got caught cold.

 

I think we're splitting hairs here. Machen in 1958 was about as good as he ever was and he was in an absolutely crucial fight. He got crushed. Ingo then went on to crush the champion.

For me, Liston would be the big favourite in this match-up, but Ingo's road to the championship gets strangely undervalued. The main difference between him and Liston is that Liston repeated the feat in his his rematch with Floyd while Ingo got laid out - and then once more.

 

Yeah, perhaps, but Ingo went on to prove it wasn't a one-off.

 

tbh I'd favor Machen in a rematch.

 

Okay, I change what I said. But I think Machen relied on his punching power more before he fought Ingo, whereas afterwords he became a greater technician (not that he wasn't before).

 

Career wise Ingo never came back from Losing to Patterson. He was half the fighter after that. But that’s okay. Liston also lost his desire as champion.

but is it really fair to say Liston came back in fights where he was hurt when in the last Johansson vs Patterson fight they were both decked a couple of times before the end. It was a war. Ingo previously had a brutal fight with Joe Bygraves in a coming of age fight he had earlier in his career, he also beat some giant guys too.

Altogether Ingo was the lighter man in nearly half the fights he had whereas Sonny
was the heavier man in all but 6 of the fights he ever had. It’s a bit easier to be the knockout artist under those circumstances.

 

Peculiar opinion. Do you think Spinks beats Tyson in a rematch?

 

I would favor Machen in a rematch, too. He was much wiser as a fighter, and I think Ingo wouldn't be able to handle Eddie's handspeed. Remember how helpless Ingo looked against Floyd's vicious handspeed in round 5 of II?

 

I think he already had the technique, but he became more cautious after the Johansson fight, maybe for good reason. He realized he wasn't quite the dynamo he thought he was. He was probably trying to be aggressive against Ingo to re-establish his No. 1 rating after the draw with Folley, for which he and Zora were both roundly criticized. I believe Machen was severely hurt by the Ingo kayo, and it affected his speed and reflexes. He also had a mental breakdown in 1963, and I can't shake the idea that it was caused in part by the fact that he knew he was physically not the same man as he had been earlier in his career. I don't have any proof that these things were connected to the Johansson fight, except my gut feeling that the fight was pivotal to all the problems which developed later.

I know that he was damaged goods at the end of his career. I saw him in the gym trying to skip rope prior to his last fight against Boone Kirkman. He kept tripping over the rope and finally gave up. I also was present in his dressing room when he was interviewed after the fight. He was combing his hair and his hands were shaking badly. He was also mumbling his answers. This was quite a few years after the Johansson fight, but I can't shake the belief that his problems started with that fight. I remember he was asked why he took the Kirkman fight and he answered "Because I needed the scratch."

 

Interesting post!
Did you hear anything indicating that is the client may have been due in part to substance abuse?

 

I never heard that, at least in the sense that he took drugs for recreation. The only drugs I have read about were the drugs prescribed at various times during his hospitalizations and post-hospital treatments for depression. He also was arrested several times for incidents involving alcohol. Mixing alcohol with antidepressants, is a type of substance abuse, I guess. He apparently was very depressed and was having trouble with sleeping and with sleepwalking when he fell ?? out of a window and died in 1972.

 

how tragic. I guess all the big punchers he faced following Johansson didn't help either. Machen took a horrible beating vs. Frazier. Do you think this had something to do with Machen's early death in 1972?

 

I think his depression was similar to what football players are experiencing from repeated head trauma. Boxers have always been susceptible to that condition, but the syndrome has not received much publicity until the medical profession started studying football players. In the USA, anything to do with American-style football is big news. Boxing, not so much.

So his propensity for depression was exacerbated by head trauma is my guess. What do you think?