Sonny Liston vs. Joe Frazier (1969)

This has always been an interesting fantasy fight.I go with the concensus opinion
that prime Sonny would be expected to beat a prime Joe Frazier.
However by 1969 Liston,although still formidable, was not quite the monster he was
in the late 50s/early 60s.
Smokin' Joe by 1969 had reached his murderous prime.
I would expect Frazier,with his constant pressure,to eventually wear down this version
of Liston.However Sonny would still let Smokin' Joe know he had been a real fight.

 

Recently watched the Liston - Martin fight for another thread. https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/leotis-martin-vs-sonny-liston-abc’s-wide-world-of-sports-1969-1080p-60fps.699735/#post-22179882

The Liston who fought Martin looked old in his body and in his movement. He was slow, and maybe not well trained, his outside of the ring lifestyle may have been the reason. I thought Liston looked older than 37-39 (he might have been) in the way he moved and in the tone of his body. Martin probably showed him more respect than was necessary and looked like he could bring his right over Liston's jab whenever he wanted. Martin could probably have ended the fight earlier, but he fought a cautious fight maybe suspecting that Liston had more left than he did. Liston bit on feints from Martin by moving a foot when a well trained fighter would only move a fraction to avoid the punch.

Frazier probably would not be cautious and wouldn't have shown Liston unnecessary respect. He probably would have given 1969 Liston a one sided beating until the referee either stopped it or counted Liston out. Frazier was too quick, too aggressive, and too busy for 1969 Liston. From what I saw of Liston in the Martin fight, he wouldn't be any danger to a 1969 Frazier.

 

Sonny absolutely still has the firepower to take Joe out early a la Foreman if he nails him. I don't think he nails him because Foreman was young and Sonny was old. Joe knows he's been in a fight but he stops Sonny about the fifth round.

 

Frazier brutal KO7. Though Liston still had a styles advantage and with it a puncher's chance. Frazier's team was absolutely correct in steering him clear of this match up. Definition of high risk-no reward.

Their were much easier stylistic match-ups, higher ranked than Liston for Frazier to pick. Absolutely no sense to make this fight.

 

At that point the only thing I’d give Liston is a puncher’s chance

 

A flu is always a big deal when you're a performing athlete whatever the age. It's worse at 40 of course, but even at age 20 it's still going to hurt you.

Foreman also stated he had the flu. I don't know whether or not he had it for sure but I'd lean towards yes. He looked a lot better in his last fight against Scrap Iron Johnson.

Flu or no flu, he's not beating Frazier in '69.

 

Sonny still had the form and executions, but at .25 X the speed. His resilience and stamina had also degraded. Even when the ref. waved off Liston's fight vs Scrap Iron Johnson, Sonny was looking a bit fatigued, simply due to (for the most part) his pounding on Johnson, IMO.

No disrespect to Scrap, and as tough as he was (he's a legend in his own way in my book), he could've been viewed as a very, very poor man's version of Joe Frazier but Scrap still got some decent shots through on that version of Liston all the same.

As already said, Liston still had a good measure of his power, so there would've still been that puncher's chance, with skills, all be they eroded, still in support to some extent. But IF Sonny was viewed as a lock to lose to Frazier, then that bout might well have been made. As @swagdelfadeel already highlighted, there was still a degree of risk involved for Frazier if he chose to fight Liston - and that risk wasn't worth it.

 

I think that 1969 is a bit too late for Sonny Liston. Joe Frazier by 1969 solidified himself as the uncrowned World Heavyweight Champion, Jimmy Ellis was the WBA Champion, Muhammad Ali was the defrocked champion minus a boxing license and title that were removed from him in April 1967. Frazier had wins over Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry to name a few of the big names. Liston had a 14 fight winning streak but against some less than dangerous contenders since the May 1965 debacle in Lewiston, Maine against then champion Ali. Frazier wears down a near hibernating Bear in 1969, Frazier slips under a still stiff Liston jab, punishes the body with his left hook, bringing it up to the head. The fight would resemble the Dec 1969 loss to Leotis Martin by Liston. This fight ends in round 10 with Liston's corner asking the referee to end matters, 1969 is no longer 1959, and Joe is not Cleveland Williams, hear that Chok?

 

This, Sonny was still fearsome but mostly done.

 

Sonny had the style to give Frazier major problems, similar to how Foreman did. I don’t rate Liston as highly as that Foreman however and I don’t think he hit as hard. I could very well see an early Liston stoppage. However a later stoppage for Frazier is also a strong possibility should he survive the early barrage. I lean slightly towards Frazier but it’s a pick’em fight for me.

 

1969 was Joe's first peak year. He was afraid of nothing and mentally tough as nails. He had the bob and weave to get underneath Sonny's slow jab with his vastly superior hand speed, and he was noticeably far more relaxed than Jerry Quarry.

On the other hand, Howard Cosell noted Liston's huffing and puffing during his win over Henry Clark. We know from Sonny's autopsy that he had diseased lungs.

Frazier showed his ability to use angles on the powerful but stationary Chuvalo. Smoke could move around Liston as well as going underneath with that hook. He was also the greatest infighter of the HW Champions with that short right uppercut. Chuvalo said Joe's right was nothing to sneeze at.

Smoke was no Patterson or Ellis. He entered a boxing gym to LOSE weight after his legs were becoming too big to fit into his pants at around 240 pounds. He was a HW from the get-go, thick as a fire hydrant. He was also an extremely fast starter at this stage of his career. I see no way for Liston to prevail in 1969. Joe was now an ATG, Sonny was aging and lung compromised. Liston gets drowned late.

 

Depends on how seriously Liston takes the fight and how hard he trains. I doubt that the post Ali version of Liston who was barnstorming around Europe and came back to the US fighting fringe contenders was training very hard or had much motivation. Still, fighting off the cuff, he still was beating decent fighters until he ran out of gas against Martin.

I can envision a motivated and rejuvenated Liston giving Frazier all kinds of problems in 1969 and maybe being the rock to Frazier's scissors. I can also picture a grinding fight where Liston slows down sharply from round to round and Frazier halts him. The question is how much difference in '69 would there be between an in-shape and hungry Sonny Liston and one going through the motions with other things on his mind fighting on instinct.

 

Fair post. I'd favor Frazier in 69 and take Liston by overwhelming stoppage best for best.