Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier

Well this match up is prime vs prime I am assuming so yes def his fights with Ali are excluded. Liston at his best was probably around 1958 or so.

 

Since we are throwing out fights shall we throw out Fraziers fights with Foreman too?

 

When he was a 29 years old reigning champion.

 

:good of course Liston was a champion when Ali beat him. Sonnys previous win was the other of his 2great win. A very easy win and still a satisfactory champion. Frazier was a while away from his great win...a win that left him in decline. With hindsight, by the time he met big George, Joe was already unsatisfactory as a champion.

 

O yeah I forgot Joe was totally shot at 29 whereas Liston was in his prime at 35 going on 40 .

Frazier was unsatisfactory to me as a champion when he ducked his contenders and fought two unranked stiffs.Effectively denying deserving challengers a shot at the title for two years.
A time for the title, and the man wearing the crown.
Tell you what do me a favour .No, I won't say it.



Yes I will ,you are full of ****!

 

A while ago I went through the ratings for the time Frazier took Daniels and Stander and it turned out Ali was fighting all the rated guys, Foreman was number one without really fighting anyone. Most of the challenges were occupied or as untested as Stander. Frazier had a clean sweep over Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena and Ali. I seem to remember out of rated guys it just left Ali left overs like Terrell and Patterson who were rated.

 

This is revisionist, dishonest bull**** of the worse kind.
More reprehensible than that, it is outright deliberate lying to somehow justify the fact that for two years Frazier defended against a couple of unranked stiffs and denied title opportunites to his deserving challengers.
It is outright lying.
Fraziers contenders in1971 ,

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Jerry Quarry
3. George Foreman
4. Oscar Bonavena
5. Mac Foster
6. Jimmy Ellis
7. Floyd Patterson
8. Jose Luis Garcia
9. Jack Bodell
10. Joe Bugner

1972.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Jimmy Ellis
4. Ron Lyle
5. Floyd Patterson
6. Ernie Terrell
7. Jose Roman
8. Joe Bugner
9. Ken Norton
10. Jose Luis Garcia

See the bangers there? Foster, Lyle, Garcia.

You are a waste of time.

 

Listons own comments regarding a Frazier fight were 'it would be like shooting crabs in a barrel' and i agree with him 100%

 

Who had Lyle beat by 1972 to warrant automatic shot? Norton was unknown when Ali took him to stay busy. Garcia? He is known only because he beat Norton but how known was Norton at that point? If Norton was then unknown how big a draw was the guy who beat him? I am at no point saying Daniels and Stander were worthy, I am saying take a look what was there! When did Foster lose to Ali and Quarry? Wasn't it about this time too?

Where is the lie you accused me of? Terrell and Patterson were about the most well known contenders during 1971-72 there was a young brood coming up who ALL needed more wins to establish themselves. Joe Bugner, Lyle and Foreman were just coming up.

The best established contenders HAD been dealt with. ALI, quarry and Ellis. There was an overlap period that looks like Frazier deliberately ducked guys, but think about it. Who would know then that Foreman was the next thing? He was fighting Terry Sorrell and still taking learning fights. Who could know Lyle would nearly beat Foreman in the future when Ron was cutting his teeth at world class. Nobody had a crystal ball did they?

 

Lyle and Norton were both top ten ranked. Go waste some one elses time ,it seems you are gradually getting through us.

 

Being ranked is just the half of it. Jack Bodell was ranked too wasn't he? It dosnt mean each ranked fighter is guaranteed or entitled to a shot unless he keeps winning or enough people know who he is. Profile goes a long way. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but you cant project a fighters future profile onto the past to suit a point. Sometimes a fighter in the ratings can be over shadowed until people know who he is.

Eddie Machen was ranked for ten years, he never got a title shot. Enough people knew who he was but he either lost eliminator fights at the wrong time or lost to champions in non title fights. He was passed over by Patterson, Liston and Ali. Nobody cries for him. Shame it worked out that way.

But your crying over Mac Foster and Luis Gonzales?

 

It's not bull**** because most of the chalengers were occupied. Daniels and Stander were poor and unrated, I am not defending them but the high profile fighers in 1972 were still Ali, Ellis and Quarry. It Would have been nice for Frazier to take on Mac Foster or Lyle or Norton but at that time I am not sure enough people knew who they were. Is it ducking or is it waiting for chalengers to establish themselves?

Patterson and Terrell were known. Foreman was still taking learning fights, I am not sure what kept him so high since only old Chuvalo was on his resume at the time. ALI was still the outstanding contender and was very busy during 1972 fighting Patterson, Ellis, quarry and Mac Foster who were still rated. That left bunger and norton but he fought them too. I don't think Foreman or Lyle fought a rated fighter in 1972. Mac Foster did not beat a rated fighter in 71 or 72. A lot of those contenders were tied up or too low profile.