Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier

Oh, your on about me wanting Sonny to have fought more "Chuvalo type fighters" before anyone gets carried away with how easy Sonny could deal with a Frazier. Well it's a point isn't it? Sonny never got around to it, wasn't his fault it wasnt like he ducked them. I never said Sonny ducked them, I'm asking for more examples.

Excusing Frazier for not getting around to Lyle or Foster isn't saying it's ok, it's just saying it wasn't a duck. Prime Frazier did take on big maulers like chuvalo and Bonavena.

Basing Joe Fraziers form against big hitters on his last title fight after he already paid his dues is not basing it on the best of Joe Frazier is it?

Sure Bonavena put Joe down, he might have put Sonny down too. Same with Foreman. He might have put Sonny down.

 

I'm not crying, just annoyed I wasted so much time on a prat like you.

 

A great post.

 

I have answered everything. Frazier didn't fight Mac Foster and Ron Lyle. This is the point I supposedly squirm with is it? But Were they any better than Chuvalo and Bonavena? I don't think so. Heck, Ron Stander beat Shavers. why wouldn't prime Frazier? Foreman smashed Frazier to pieces, I know this, but Foreman was not Liston, Foreman certainly was not equal to Foster nor was he equal to a Ron Lyle.

Frazier had deteriorated more from beating Ali than Sonny had deteriorated from beating Patterson in so many seconds the second time. Why is Fraziers loss to Foreman so much more relevant to how he gets on in his prime than how relevant Listons first loss to Ali is to Sonnys prime?

Can this be a point you might address or will you continue being rude and irrational towards me?

 

Ditto. :good

 

I agree. I feel Liston wins the fight but I can't knock Joe's resume I can say his defenses as champion may be sub standard but his body of work as a whole is tremendous. A true great.

 

I owe you an apology, he deserves all he gets.

 

I wrote off those fighters for Frazier because I felt they represented nothing more than what Chuvalo or Bonnavena was able to show us against Frazier. But they could have been awkward, they could have been easy, we just don't know.

I did not use just miteff as an example I also used Chuvalo with him. I also said Liston proberbly smashes them to smithereens, but I felt, whilst he did not duck them, I felt that only had he smashed that type of fighter to smithereens then Sonny would show something closer to concrete proof that he could smash Frazier so easily too. Patterson, Folley and Harris were not so well known as being big heavy awkward handfuls or durable types.

You picked both apart, that's ok. They were not ATG fighters or anything like it so that's ok. I also pick Liston to beat them anyway. It was just a case of knowing How he beat that type of guy.

I accept miteff was not elite, I feel you would love it that I didn't know that but I did. You jumped on miteff because you thought it was a mistake but it was not. Mittef was just a tough opponent who was a bit bigger than the better fighters Sonny did beat.. No better just bigger. He could have been awkward, he could have been easy, we just don't know. I favour Liston beats him. There were better fighters around but they were small and they suited Liston.

 

Liston in about 6.
Too much firepower.

 

Maybe sub-standard? Two unranked challengers in2 years!There's no maybe about it!

 

It depends which Liston we are talking about.

Prime for prime I would favor Liston in a heartbeat, but in terms of the timeline where the fight could actually have been made, I think that Frazier would have been too much for the whisky swilling ex champion.

It was prudent on the part of Frazier's people to keep him away from Liston, but Frazier could have prevailed if the issue had been forced.

 

Yes the old version of Sonny may have been overwhelmed by the faster ,younger, fresher, prime Frazier ,but the chance wasn't worth the risk,a sensible sidestep on Durham's part.

 

I agree. He had sub standard title defenses. No question.
His overall body of work is still impressive.