Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier

Where is this evidence Liston had “dog” in him? I’m curious.

 

Marciano moves his body weaving, ducking, slipping at unpredictable angles doing a lot of bending at the waist. And he did move his head as well, just not as much as Frazier. But Frazier was the same constant head movement every fight, he was very fast but his movement was always the same. Bob and weave then left hook. He never switched it up. Marciano would sometimes bob and roll in the crouch then come up with a big left hook...other times he might bend at the torso, roll, weave and come up with a roundhouse or straight right hand. Both were great at what they did.

As for Liston, I think Frazier walks right into another foreman. Let’s face it, Liston could match foreman in strength and power, except he had the better jab and better boxing skills than foreman. And punches that joe had trouble defending against like a powerful uppercut and hook, were listons best punches. Bad matchup for joe.

 

Rockys movements so slow compared to Fraziers. I disagree on head movment. Rocks a much easier stationary target in my book.
All this talk about Marciano being a 2 fisted puncher. I dont recall Frazier ever having trouble landing that hook. Guys knew it was coming and couldn't do anything about it. Fraziers speed makes up alot. Hand and foot speed. His rt hand to the body is also very overlooked. I already said my peice about Liston this morning if you scroll up.

 

Frazier hit folks more often than de john and Williams did. He landed his Sunday punch more frequently than just about any other great fighter. Way more often. Joe usually hit the other guy more often than they hit him and an enormous percentage of his blows were power shots.

Withstanding dejohn And Williams is one thing. Tangling with a prime Frazier is a whole world of difference.

11 fight Frazier that Bonavena fought was a different proposition than the 24-0 guy that smashed up Jimmy Ellis.

 

Don't get upset. I just look amust be Liston fanboy to think that a guy that gets

So your living in fantasy land? You think weight is the be all end all? A heavyweight like Liston at 215lbs can crack Wlads chin and is a threat to hurt him. A guy we saw stopped by Ross Purrity and Brewster? Then a part time golfer destroyed him.I guess all those guys hit harder than Liston. LMAO tell me will Vitali have to come out of retirement to avenge his brother’s losses.
I sorry to upset you. I’m just living in reality. You bring up Chris Byrd I guess in a feeble attempt question whether Sonny Liston could hurt Wlad. LOL. Chris Byrd was known for his devastating power?

What makes Wlad such a superior athlete to Liston? He lifts weights? Bigger muscles? Keep your hands where I can see them! LOL. He couldn’t go 5 or 6 rounds without falling apart. Is it a sign of athletic ability to fall all over a guy after every exchange? No agility? Balance? It was extreme.

There is definitely a “fanboy” in the building. Its just too bad you don’t know who it is.

 

That doesn't mean he hits harder. And the 10 fight Liston who lost a split dec to Marshall, fighting the last 4 rds with a broken jaw is a different proposition to the guy who ignored The Big Cats punches and took him out in a total of 5 rds for 2 fights.

 

Why not? It’s happened before. Willie pep and Vitali Klitschko quit with shoulder injuries while well ahead on points. Did those guys have “dog” in them?

Once again, Liston fought for 4 rounds with a broken jaw while behind on points and didn’t quit. Where was his “dog” in that fight?

the second fight is a completely different story. He may have taken a dive or just packed it in like Walcott Marciano II

 

Yes, Frazier’s bob and weave was the same motion. It could be timed. Most opponents couldn’t because Frazier was so good at it. also marciano was not a plodder. He stalked, and was always dipping weaving rolling in his crouch bending his waist at unpredictable angles with his torso. He would throw punches from all angles that were hard to see coming from the crouch, Goldman taught Marciano how to fight smaller and it worked.

Frazier was definitely faster and definitely moved his head better. Frazier was also better at slipping jabs. However, Marciano did move his head well too just not as often. And Marciano was a two fisted assasin, capable of producing knockouts with either hand and he had an ATG right hand while Frazier’s right was nothing more than a body punch and a decoy. Yes, Frazier’s left was devastating, maybe the best ever. But not having a second knockout punch is going to really hurt him in fantasy matchups against ATG punchers like a Liston , Louis, or a Tyson

 

Where is the proven evidence Williams and Dejohn hits harder than Frazier?

If this could be proven they did (it can’t) there is this business of Frazier’s greater accuracy and phenomenal power punching output.

Frazier is much more dangerous because he is landing more powershots.

Those guys never delivered at top level. Feeling their way in with lighter blows they were unable to pull the trigger at the higher level to get the right connection. By contrast Frazier at his best was blasting on the way in and pinpoint against the best fighters.

On film Frazier snuffed out Bob Foster, Buster Mathis and Jimmy Ellis with explosive knockouts. He decked Ali hard. Stopped Quarry and Chuvalo. None of those guys were 20lb lighter than Frazier was at the time either.

Liston never fought a puncher like that.

 

Did any of Marciano's top opponents have a hard time finding him? You've undoubtedly watched his fights more closely than I have but it always seemed to me that the problem wasn't timing or hitting him, it was that they couldn't get rid of him or handle the return fire.

 

You make some good points but it should be noted Frazier did fight a puncher like Liston and he got destroyed in 2 rounds

It’s not a good idea to walk into Liston trying to swarm over him. Patterson walked right into Liston and it didn’t end well

 

No he didnt actually, Foster wasnt a heavyweight,and he wasn't 20 pounds lighter than Frazier, he was 21pounds!


Mathis was on his feet,Ellis was retired on his stool .Quarry and Chuvalo were on their feet. Stop with the "snuffed out and explosive knockouts "**** .The best guy Frazier actually floored for a ten count was cruiser Doug Jones.

 

Did marcianos top opponents have a hard time finding him? The answer is no.

However look at who you’re talking about...Ezzard Charles Jersey Joe Walcott Archie Moore. These 3 men were some of the craftiest pinpoint snipers in boxing history. Who didn’t they have trouble finding? Louis had no trouble finding marciano with his jab, but other than Walcott’s ATG head movement, Louis landed his jab on everyone. Charles in 1950 in his absolute prime looked like he got run over by a Mack truck after 15 rounds dealing with Louis jab..so again quality of opposition must be talen into consideration

If you watch his fights carefully, you will see he made some of these accurate punchers miss at times. His defense against Moore in 55 was impressive, especially in round 6 when he made Moore miss by inches as they were slugging it out against the ropes


I am not advocating marcianos defense was top notch nor was it better than Frazier’s, but it was not bad. And he had an iron chin behind it

One of marcianos opponents said it best. “He wasn’t hard to hit, but he was deceptively hard to hit cleanly while in his crouch”

 

The quote is Walcott's and its accurate.

 

apologies, I walked right into that one! Foster was smaller but a current great. The others were as big or bigger. Chuvalo, Mathis, Ali and Ellis.

Mathis dropped like a 243lb sack of coal, he nearly went through the canvas. If big bus was on his feet at 9 he was sleep walking. Ellis was carried to his stool. His corner retired him. Those guys were out!

Where is the film evidence of Williams and Dejohn closing the show with anything like as emphatic as Frazier upending Foster, Mathis and Ellis?