Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier

I like the Frazier work rate here and speed. Frazier may get hurt or shook but IMO he gets inside Sonny's jab and works the body and head with his hooks to get a stoppage around the 8-9th round...this is prime for prime we are talking

 

Chuck Wepner (6'4 220s) was a mauler who was actually bigger than Liston yet Liston had little trouble with him despite his agedness

 

That is true but Wepner was not a celebrated elite mauler like a Bonavena or chuvalo who actualy knocked out other contenders. Wepner was Listons last fight too. It was hardly vintage Liston.

Game as he was, Wepner was more clumsy grinder than mauler. Being as kind as possible I don't think Chuck was much more than a good honest fringe guy. Joe Bugner, a novis at that time, had a far easier time with Wepner in chucks next fight than Liston did. Bugner was not stopping rated guys ..but he stopped Wepner.

 

If this is the sonny Liston from 1959-1962, then the edge goes to the Bear in my book.

 

your Damn right, Frazier is made for prime Liston..... but only the Frazier FOREMAN FOUGHT. That version, the half blind one, was still good once he could feel his way in but had to walk up to a guy before he let punches go. Suicide against a puncher on the outside. That was not Prime Frazier.

Prime Frazier really knew how to use angles. He punched on the way in. his feet were in position before the other fellow let a punch go. He beat ALi to the draw landing outside hooks before he could get off with a ten inch reach advantage. I am telling you, prime Frazier could jab with his hook, met people on the way in like a long jab.

According to Chuvalo who fought both Ali and Frazier, Joe had the best defence. His words on a curent thread were something like "he was hard to hit with straight punches which is why he did so well with Ali" "He slipped punches and closed the gap". Perfect for Liston.

Like I said before Joe would get hit but he hits Liston a lot, lot more. Frazier led with power shots. He was more relentless than any fighter Sonny fought.

 

Joe Frazier was asked in the HBO documentary that came out a few years ago approximately what year he went blind. He replied " 1965." So basically he fought his entire pro career with one eye. Wasn't just a factor in the Foreman fight.

 

Liston is wrong for Frazier.

That ram-rod jab would give him nightmares.

 

If you think Bonavena or Chuvalo would beat a prime Liston , then you belong in the general forum. Actually you do.

 

Frazier has now become the Sam Langford that beat Tiger Flowers


CACK!

 

If Liston had more hand speed I'd have no problem picking him to beat a prime Frazier but he doesn't In his 1st fight with Ali, Frazier was very good at slipping Ali's jab and following right hand and Ali's hands moved a lot faster than Liston's. Sonny had plenty of power but was somewhat methodical in his approach. Jab, jab and step, throw the right etc..Joe would be able to slip those punches and fire back. I'm not saying Joe would slip all of Sonny's punches and that's where it gets dicey. If Sonny conncts flush it spells trouble for Joe who better avoid taking too many in a row. Prime Frazier probably could however and work his way to a decision....Though I'm not sure I'd bet the house on it.

 

A good case has been made for Frazier (though Ali's reach was not 10" greater). But methinks the questions properly turns on whether you think prime Frazier would beat Foreman or the power/style would be too much to overcome. I am in the latter camp.

Liston & Foreman were similar enough in speed, power size (one greater height, Liston greater reach) that I think Joe either loses to or beats them both prime for prime. With the great jab & other punches, including uppercut, I tend to think Liston could keep him off enough like shoving George to bomb him out.

 

Liston was 6' 1" chest 44" biceps 17.5" reach 84" weight 212lbs
Frazier 5'11" chest 42" biceps 15" reach 73.5" weight 205lbs

 

Liston.

Bad style match up for Frazier. I do not favor anyone trying there hardest to get inside of Liston. Liston does not have to be fast, he just has to throw his punches as hard as he can at a target that wants to exchange. The fact is Frazier does not have the chin or the punch to allow himself to get tagged by Liston consistanly round after round.

Fraizer has great upperbody movement and handspeed for a heavyweight to really land some serous leather on Sonny. Enough to make Sonny realize that this will be a war that he could be stopped in. I think if either one of them needs to make a game change it will be Sonny is more capable of stepping back and reasserting his jab and right hand. Sonny boxed with boxer and banged with bangers.

Frazier will have to, and I mean have to, be on his best behavior when it comes to ducking and slipping, because one false shot and it is the ballgame. Liston is in my top 5 of heavyweight power. Up there with Foreman and Louis. That makes a huge difference in this fight.

This fight will be fought a mid-range and close quarters. Against a pure boxer with a lean body and no infighting skill (Ali) this is a great plan. Against a heavier, taller, harder hitting, better punching, mean, evil dog...this is not the best idea.

Liston by KO. Early or later. Out of respect for Fraizer I go later. 2...joking 10-13

 

Absolutely. All it has to do is keep Joe from setting himself to throw his left hook, and it does that easily. The only way Joe wins is by KO, and I don't think he can do that against a prime Liston.

Lets be honest here Joe's reputation is built not so much on his blitzing of certain opponents, but rather his ability to absorb punishment and still win. I just can't see that happening against prime Sonny.