The results Sonny was recording were “world class worthy”. They were what a world class guy was expected to record. sonny still had enough left to beat Scrap iron Johnson quicker than Frazier and Foreman did. Sonny beat Amos Lincoln quicker than Buster Mathis and Karl Mildenburger did. Liston beat Elmer Rush quicker than anyone else and Rush drew with Machen around the same time. Roger Rischer beat Henry Cooper and George Chuvalo before Sonny flattened him. Not forgetting Henry Clark actually being rated at the time since he beat Martin and Machen! All these results came after Sonny Lost to Ali and before he lost to Martin. It shows us while he was older Sonny was still recording good wins the whole entire time. He was not having mishaps or dips in form. The shock loss to Leotis Martin was no case of a serious decline or that things finally were catching up with him. He just got beat up by a good fighter.
He proved it against who? Foreman did not mention liston between the hardest punchers that he fought or sparred with.
He actually did in a way .. In sparring Foreman said that Liston was the only guy who could back him up and take his head off if he wanted too … But Foreman was young, late teens I believe, and they were pretty good friends so giving his friend props probably had something to do with it...
No actually he never did... He was clear about it.. Gerry cooney,ron lyle and cleveland williams(foreman was a kid also like he was when sparred with liston). Sonny never was mentioned here. Foreman said that liston was a strong guy that was all
I can find it and post it those were foreman's words, but what's the point you'll will probably just ignore it. And I already acknowledged he was young..You asked me who Liston proved he was a hard hitter against and I answered you against a hard puncher(Williams) .. so do not know what the confusion is there? And this notion you have that Liston wasn't a powerful puncher is just insane to me … you are entitled to your opinion mate, but I think most will disagree with you
Since when was cleveland williams known for being a tough guy or having iron chin or anything indicative of the super power of liston?
Clay got into Liston's head in 1964 & 1965....Ali couldn't do that to Frazier on March 8, 1971 for the FOTC...
You go to endless lengths trying to tell us a near 40yo Liston (53 fights) wasn't shot yet Ali and a 31yo and 34 fight Frazier were?? Shot? Inside his previous 4 fights Frazier had punched past top 10'er Joe Bugner, beaten top 5 contender Jerry Quarry by stoppage and stopped Jimmy Ellis as well just for good measure. Frazier is shot? Liston isn't tho and is in better nick than Frazier? It's well known Manilla took most of what Ali had left and even after Manilla he still had enough left to beat Shavers. If that was a comparative Liston win you'd be proclaiming him better than ever. Cool stuff.
Count up the punishment Frazier stacked up compared to Sonny though Johnny, Frazier hospitalised after Ali. Fears over his career even carrying on. The Foreman shellacking. Quarry and Ellis could have been as shot as Joe was, maybe that’s why they were selected as opponents? Even Bugner blackened Frazier’s eye and staggered him. By comparison Sonny Liston is compiling effortless wins after losing to Ali and is on a 13 man knockout spree. He’s hardly taking a punch in return! Where is the wear and tear?
So now you have to take beatings in the ring in order to become “washed up” in your late 30s? Your reflexes don’t just become eroded with old age??? News to me. The lengths you go to grasp on to straws is alarming
Yes, wars take their toll. It’s been accepted that this is the case. If anything pretending wars don’t take their toll is clutching at straws and not the other way around. Sonny was old in the way winning fighters on win streaks like Walcott or Moore were old. Sure he was not at his physical best but there was not much evidence that Sonny was much past it since he was still wiping the floor with decent fighters and taking very little in the way of punches in return. The loss to Martin was an upset wasn’t it?
Was Sonny on a 13 man knockout spree when lost to a Leotis Martin? Did Frazier get hospitalised after the Ali fight causing fears he would retire?
