Sonny Liston vs. Larry Holmes

C'mon man .. All these ATG Hw's have had problems .. Ali vs Norton ... Liston vs Ali .... Prime '81 Holmes is a good fight vs Mike, imo .. .. Liston Holmes is a true 50 - 50 fight .. i mean cmon is is not? Larry had the superior footwork and Liston had the straighter shots... and i really dont see Louis being a huge favorite over Holmes ... Unless you have Larry well outside your top 5 ATG Heavies .. I personally dont think Holmes is a disadvantaged h2h ATG Hw ... I could think of more HWS with weakness in their game more than than Holmes .. but all good

 

I favour Holmes over Marciano, Fury, Bowe, Holyfield, Vitali, Foreman.

I think Lewis, Wladimir, Frazier, are close fights in the 50/50 range.

But i make Louis, Liston, Tyson, Ali, as slight favourites over him.

I understand what your saying though and i respect your opinion.

As for Holmes vs Weaver that arguably could be in my top 10 favourite Heavyweight fights of all time, definitely one of the more underrated great Heavyweight fights.

 

Holmes UD. 2 ATG fighters that could beat anybody on any given night. I like Holmes style wise here.

 

I will go with Larry Holmes by unanimous decision. I would not rule out Sonny Liston dropping him once, but not stopping Larry. I also would not rule out Larry stopping Sonny late.

 

Thank you for this post man, Larry is not as mobile as i think people make him out to be, he isn't a sitting duck but by no means is he dancing around the ring. I think Liston could cut Larry off and drive him to the ropes.

 

Interesting fight to watch is Holmes (21-0) vs Roy Williams in 1976, undercard to Norton vs Stander, and main event Ali vs Young.

Larry of course still developing and not yet at prime but when he threw them, Williams wasn't having much trouble landing the jab. Williams was listed as 6'5", reach unknown but based on height and the eye test, could guess an easy 82" or so reach.

I would probably rate Williams jab good to very good but a lot less than Liston's own jab. Even when in the developing stages, certain vulnerabilities are somewhat embedded in a fighter's otherwise positive style and while the of the severity of those vulnerabilities might be reduced (while approaching and in prime), they still exist to some degree ((see Ali v Cooper 1963 and later, Ali's lifelong vulnerability to the left hook).

No, Larry def. didn't move every second of a fight - when he did move, it was reasonably effective though he kinda looked a tad awkward, herky jerky, nothing like Ali of course.

Not a great year for Williams, losing to Holmes then to Shavers by TKO/KO round 10. From recollection, it was curious that Williams didn’t employ the jab vs Earnie as much as he did Holmes.

The range of choices I see here are a close UD or later round KO/TKO W for either man over 15 rounds. I lean toward Liston but it’s a near pick ‘em fight - the type where certain key variables won’t firmly fix themselves until the time and unpacking of the fight itself.

 

Sonny Liston KO RD6

 

Holmes UD.

 

Holmes keeps Liston off with his jab for 12 rounds and wins by comfortable UD.

 

I agree with basically all of this but I think Foreman and Frazier are favorites and would favor Holmes over Wlad.

 

When has Holmes ever kept a mediocre fighter, let alone an ATG like Liston off of him for 12 rounds? He couldn't do it against Berbick. Couldn't do it against Shavers. Couldn't do it against Weaver. Couldn't do it against Snipes. Couldn't do it against Cooney (though I'll concede he was showing signs of deterioration).

 

Maybe mate, but I am one person who thinks Sonny Liston is just a tad overrated. He's an ATG for sure but Ali made a joke of him by jabbing and moving. That said, Ali was a lot quicker than Holmes but I am not sure his jab was quite as good (or popped as well as Larry's).

I can just see a scenario where Holmes frustrates the hell out of Liston and boxes his way to a comfortable points win.

 

Holmes had strength of character. In a tough fight he summoned up the strength to overcome the obstacles and win. This would no doubt be a tough fight -- for both of them. That's why I like Larry in this one. Faced with an extremely tough opponent Liston could conceivably fold. We saw him do it. That was revealing. Throughout his long career Holmes never quit.

 

Liston was well past his prime against Ali, and if the most recent data available to us, as well as doctors estimates are accurate he was 41-42 years old, had boxed less than 6 minutes in three years (ironically his dominance went on to hurt him, and made him rusty), was suffering from bursitis (confirmed by his autopsy) and had a verified injured shoulder going into the bout.

Also I wouldn't say Ali "made a joke of him". Fight was dead even with scores of 58-56, 56-58, and 57-57. Ali was hurt by Liston numerous times by his own admission before the 5th round, and was actually slipping a decent amount of jabs.

"Ali was a lot quicker than Holmes" You can say that again.

"I am not sure his jab was quite as good (or popped as well as Larry's)." You're right. It wasn't as good. It was better. Much more versatile, much quicker, could hit you with it from angles Holmes didn't know existed, and most importantly was able to change the direction of the jab after throwing it.

"I can just see a scenario where Holmes frustrates the hell out of Liston and boxes his way to a comfortable points win."

Holmes even in his prime rarely had a "comfortable" win against even mediocre opposition as I previously stated. His bouts with Weaver, Snipes, Shavers, etc all proved this.

 

I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole regarding Liston's age. He had another 16 fights after Ali II so I am just going to go with what we roughly know as of now.

Ali may have had more angles on his jab than Holmes did but there is no way it clipped you with the power Larry did.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the outcome of this one but the different perspective you have provided is food for thought.