Sonny Liston vs. Larry Holmes

The battle of the jabs. Larry wins because he has a better chin. UD

 

Holmes may've had more power on his jab, but Ali was superior in just about every other facet of the jab (and as a fighter tbh with the exception of Holmes being much better on the inside).

While we disagree on just about everything in this thread, I commend you for being a class act and not resorting to insults such as the majority of new posters (as well as myself ).

 

Back at you mate. In my relatively short time posting on this forum I have found you to have one of the more interesting takes on things.

 

Honestly, I doubt that. I can't for the life of me see Snipes floor Liston. Nor Weaver hurting Liston, or coming razor close to pulling off an upset.

On the other hand, I can easily see, and believe Holmes doesn't take the shots Liston took from Williams nearly as well as Liston did.

Liston was only floored and knocked out once legitimately in his 40s as a sick coked up drunk.

 

I've never understood this "Liston would quit when the going gets tough" stuff. He didn't quit when Valdez shut his eye, when Marshall broke his jaw, or when Williams staggered him and broke his jaw.

 

His reputation cratered after the two Ali fights. The writers never liked him and were happy to kick him when he was down -- and face it, Sonny deserved it. But that doesn't dispel the fact that he was an awesome heavyweight. While he was active pre-1964 nobody could imagine how he could be beaten.

 

Because he knew he could handle those guys if he held on.
Holmes is an Ali-tier fighter. Sonny will start to tire physically and mentally as he is chasing Holmes in a straight line, eating jabs on the way. He doesn't know how to cut off the ring and his hands will be moving in slow motion from Larry's perspective. Larry is the closest thing to Ali at heavyweight and that style is the worst match up for Sonny.

 

In the round before he was kayo'ed by Martin his nose was bloodied and he was spitting out blood, and thus was having trouble breathing. That was where the fight turned. Until then he was winning handily. These reports of how he was using heroin and coke -- aren't implausible but they were never proven. Some of the books that were written about him lack credibility. I don't believe anything written by Paul Gallender.

 

,,,,very sound argument. I agree

 

Well he didn't handle Marshall, in the first fight as he lost that one.

What indication is there that he "knew he could handle those guys if he held on" and the same wasn't the case for Ali? I think in fact the opposite is true. He trained like a demon against Williams and since their bout, said Williams was the second best in the division, second only to himself, and hit harder than anyone he ever faced.

On the other hand, he spoke in interviews how he thought very little of Ali and would dispatch of him very quickly, and his training for (or lackthereof) reflected that.

Also how does having your first taste of adversity in quite a while and having your nose broken in the opening round of a fight not only increase your confidence but reinforce this belief of "I can handle this guy if I hold on"?

As I've stated literally countless times, Holmes, while an ATG is not an Ali tier fighter. He DID NOT outbox opponents as effortlessly as pre-exile Ali (and even 70s Ali prior to Thrilla). He simply did not have the speed, reflexes, nor talent to do so. You'll never see Holmes pull off what Ali did against Williams and London. Brute truth is, he simply wasn't as good. He often had to get his hands dirty, and wear his opponents out.

He was inferior to Ali in just about every category aside from his inside game, as well as, playing the aggressor in a bout.

 

Yes he was having trouble breathing, and was clearly fatigued. Even before his nose was bloodied he was visibly slowing down. I don't know how this loss contributes to the idea he folded when the going got tough. He literally went out on his back, when bloodied, and hurt.

Nor I. But I believe census records as well as estimates of doctors who examined him which put his age at 43 to 47 at the time of this bout.

 

What do census recirds say?

 

1950 record census says he was born in (more likely considering he almost certainly had a May birthday) 1922 or 1923. Sonny Liston's age? | Boxing News 24 Forum (boxingforum24.com)

"CHARLES (SONNY) LISTON v was on cortisone for five days immediately prior to his ill-fated title defense on Feb. 25, according to a report released Tuesday by the Senate Antitrust and Monopoly subcommittee. prepared by the State's attorney's office of Dade county, the report quoted Liston's adviser and personal physician as saying that Listen also was under going physiotherapy for pains in his left, arm for an 8 day Period before the fight. The Miami boxing Commission was not notified of the treatment, the report said. After the fight, according to the report, Dr. Lester Russin and other doctors at Miami's St. Francis Hospital confirmed Liston's injury as an inflamed tendon in his left arm. Dr. Russin was quoted as saying the condition was "particularly prevalent in older athletes".

"The report said that Dr. Russin estimated Liston's actual age as between 38 and 41. The former champion has listed himself as 30 years old."

Source:https://www.newspapers.com/clip/98505474/the-philadelphia-inquirer/

 

Liston via KO

 

Holmes by UD by I'm not sure... holmes never fought a guy with a jab like liston