Sonny Liston vs. Larry Holmes

Agreed Swag. Sonny was clearly slowing down with an incrementally diminishing tank even before the Martin fight.

In his match vs Scrap Iron Johnson, just a couple of fights prior to facing Martin, Sonny looked very slow and fatigued from merely pounding on Scraps, round after round. Scrap's ability to take a punch was UNREAL and I think Sonny looked a bit relieved when they finally called it in round 7 - which, IIRC, was close to around same time that one can observe a discernible slowing down of Liston in his own right during the Martin fight.

 

He didn't, luckily his jab is better, much quicker and it's coming down from a higher vantage point.

 

So you saying Mildenberger didn't have some success, especially with the jab? How about Folley? Cooper in the first fight (not just the knockdown either). I think you'll find they did, so if Berbick and Shavers were 'close' fights (even though Larry lost about five rounds in a total of 35 completed rounds in those fight combined) then Mildenberger, Cooper and Folley were too. So the idea that 'prime' Ali just won every round with ease is BS. The Liston fight was even, as you've stated, and Sonny looked about 45 in there- and nearly as slow as Old George.

By the way, I'm not saying losing a few rounds here and there is a big thing- you are. Holmes chose to brawl with Weaver and it's a great fight, Larry would often do that- he possibly would with Liston and it'd cause some scary moments too.

 

I wonder if some people would rate Holmes higher if Ali had beaten him? I reckon a definite 'yes'.

 

I literally never said Berbick and Shavers were close fights nor that Ali won every round. I gave Shavers and Berbick maybe two rounds each. Holmes pretty much dominated the Berbick bout, but nearly every round Berbick past this so called indestructible jab and had some decent success on the inside.

I gave Cooper the first round, which Ali often dropped to feel his man out, and goof around, as well as the round in which he dropped Ali. Ali was green in that bout, and also extending Cooper to make true on his prediction (which he did against everyone to make his predictions ring true).

Against Mildenberger Referee Teddy Waltham had Ali ahead 7-2-2, and Judges Felix Ohlet and Nat, had Ali leading 7-3-1. The Associated Press had Ali in front 9-1-1. I will grant that Ali looked mildly uncomfortable in the opening rounds but adjusted excellently as the fight went on. I also think Ali was a tad overworked in that time period, as he'd had three bouts in just over 6 months against top contenders.

I honestly don't see your point with Folley? I didn't think he had much success at all tbh but I'll rewatch the fight later tonight. Ali dropped the first two rounds or so from memory but only because he was goofing around, and didn't make an effort to do anything. Starting from the third round or so Ali just dominated Folley. Rocking and/or dropping him in every round, and iirc willingly came off his toes to exchange with Folley and won out some decent exchanges.

I also disagree that Holmes chose to brawl with Weaver. Like I said, he didn't have the ability of Ali to effortlessly outbox his opponents, and often had to get his hands dirty, and go into the trenches with his man and wear them out.

 

I'd say you made them out they were far tougher than the reality. Take away that Shavers boomer and all 3 fights were 'comfortable' enough.

Ali was getting the better of Cooper in just one completed round, which was the 4th funny enough, a round he definitely didn't win and needed, oft-claimed "illegals" to help revive him. I agree he was green, to be fair but top class opponents are sparse in this era, so that's one of my examples.

Mildenberger landed more jabs overall (having some fine success with it in the first half of the fight especially) and outlanded Ali in punches for 6 out of the 11 completed rounds- that's a fair bit of success. Hence why I brought it up and figured you'd go on about the judges...maybe Pernell Whitaker had no success in Ramirez neither? But even so, two of the judges saw this bout as pretty even until the 8th. So that's a fair bit of success. The AP card is shocking, who was reporting for them- Art Lurie?

Folly also outjabbed Ali for large parts of the fight and, again, in total punches. Ali stepped it up yes, but it was close while it lasted, it's pretty even after six. And Folley was a guy who Flesicher called "as futile as any challenger going back to Johnny Paycheck".

I think Larry would have effortlessly outboxed virtually all of prime Ali's title defence opponents myself. The only really good two- one took a dive and the other was crippled with a bad back.

 

Usyk lost more rounds vs Chisora than Ali did vs Mildenberger, and Ali actually had his opponent down 3 times and scored a stoppage. Where as Usyk never floored Chisora and actually went the distance in a closish fight.

If Usyk was able to stop a top 4 ranked Heavyweight at that time who had a record of 49-3, and drop him 3 times along the way. Usyk would be getting praised all over this forum.

 

First instinct says Holmes but more I think about it more I think it could go either way. It's not a foregone conclusion that Liston couldn't win a decision, either.

Feels like a 50/50 fight to me

 

Thank you for pointing that out. Ali was way ahead on the cards when he stopped Mildenberger.

 

Ha ha ha. Who said he wasn't? If Ron Lyle had survived the 11th round Ali would have been ahead then too- after doing next to nothing for 30 minutes. That's how bent these judges are.

 

We can look at what Mildenberger's face looked like if we ignore the cards.

 

Yeah, cause flooring Mildenberger is the same as flooring Chisora isn't it?

Not if he was 195 pounds he wouldn't.

 

So he should have, we talking Karl Mildenberger here. But still, he outlands Ali and outjabs him for large parts of this fight.