Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

No need to rethink. Anyone can nitpick Bias out of someones posts, its quite clear chris pontius is a big fan of lennox, while im a big fan of sonny and neither of us will change our minds. As Ron Burgundy said "agree to disagree"


I will respond to your points chris.

 

I could say the same about you trying to focus all the attention on listons fights with Ali.

Yes. Liston entering the first Ali fight had fought a grand total of EIGHT rounds in the past 4 years! if thats not rust I dont know what is! 218lb is 7-15lb heavier than the average he had been weighing in in the late 1958-1960.

I think Sonny was past his prime by the 2nd patterson fight, he looked a bit soft. the fact that he flattened patterson again showed how devastating he is even not at his best.

Sonny Listons prime was 1958-1960

- Summerlin was a terrific boxer, 22-1 I believe when he fought Sonny. He wasted a lot of potential, but at one point he really made a run and came close for a title shot, with his talent he was easily good enough.

Marshall was ranked # 9 Lightheavyweight divison when he fought sonny


- Yes a flash knockdown.

Listons best weight was 204-212lb 1958-1960

Well Liston-Ali bouts are very controversial. While I have no doubt the 2nd bout liston took a dive, I think the first fight was legit. However its clear liston was far past his prime and this was clear in listons camp by that time. He had slowed down so much that listons trainers told the sparring partners to slow down their punches try to make liston appear faster than he was to help sonnys confidence. btw i do penalize liston a bit for his quit job against ali.

Then again, Liston was knocked out cold by Hasim Rahman. Liston never suffered a loss like this to this caliber a fighter while near his prime.


Lennox may have been 35 when he fought rahman, but most liston supporters claim liston primed right around this time and that the tua preformance(a year before) was one of his best showings. or do you believe lennox was past his prime at this point?

I actually know quite a few who thought mercer won the fight. Mercer outjabbed him the whole fight.

takes a better shot? thats pure speculation


Lennox was frustrated the whole fight, because 36 year old mercer had a great game plan similiar to bruno's and was outjabbing and outboxing him.

I am simply stating a fact. May not hold alot of weight, but its a relevant fact in this discussion.

- Proving you can get off the canvas and win a fight is huge, its all mental toughness. When your on the floor, your dangerously close to losing....you have to fight through adversity not only to get back up but to stick to your game plan and not get frustrated about being knocked down and falling apart there.

Liston didn't get knocked out by inferior fighters like lennox did.

Liston had a 84" reach. it was measured many times, tale of the tapes and papers dont lie if all of them agree listons reach was 84". New York times described williams as having an "82 reach".

Actually listons arm isnt extended either, you can see his elbow bent. besides they both were at a different angle while throwing the punch so we arnt able to get proper judgement. so this arguement is flawed.

Fact remains liston has an 84" reach


- your right, rankings were flawed back then. they were flawed and most of the time the unchallenged overhyped white fighters got the benefit of the doubt while the proven avoided more talented black fighters were left off.

I dont think you could name me 5 heavyweights(outside of liston) that could have beat cleveland williams in 1960

 

so woody, your logic is a fighters prime is all about how old they are?


Everyone primes differently. Many Lennox supporters think of him as a late bloomers whose prime was in his early-mid 30s.

 

HA! you mean the way he looked at the ref glassy eyed like he didnt know where he was with his body falling backward and forward cause his legs had turned to jelly? he was out on his feet, good call by the referee.


The mere fact lennox suffered two one punch knockout losses to rahman and mccall shows you he would at the very least be vunerable to getting knocked out by a great puncher like liston

 

Westphal was not 5'7. Westphal looked like a fighter, he had muscle tone and was cut. Botha was a joke.

I did. It appears you should take off those rose coloured glasses and look at the film again. This time a 1958-1960 Liston.

No I included these men. They are all big punchers. However it must be noted most of these guys did not connect on lennox, and the some that did staggered lennox badly but didnt have the finishing skills to finish him off. Lennox has very good defense, very underated in this department, he was able to survive against all these punchers because he protected his weak chin with solid defense.

More athletically talented? this is debatable, as golota looked pretty crude in the ring compared to a master stylist like zora folley and eddie machen, not to mention floyd patterson.


Bowe was shot, he looked awful. I felt so bad for bowe, he was damaged goods by the age of 27. Many heavyweights in the world would have beat him in 1996.

May I add Golota lost to bowe, so two DQ losses to a shot version of bowe is not more impressive than williams demolition of 6'6 ernie terell.

If you go by the monthly ratings and not the yearly ratings, he has knockout wins over rated contenders. Terell was 23-3 when he fought williams and was in the monthly ratings, no exuses.


- Terell-Williams rematch was a good one........williams knocked him down and appeared to earn the victory, but a hotly contested split decision was awared to terell.

Fact is when Cleveland Williams stepped up in competition in his prime he looked great. He gave a peak sonny liston his two toughest fights, fought a draw against master boxer top contender eddie machen, and went 1-1 with terell in a series that should have gone 2-0 in williams favor.

Its not secret that Damato ducked williams like the plague.

Look at his matches in his prime 1957-1963 and you will see he did extremley well when he stepped up in competition. that is unless you want to count post 1964 fights when he had a bullet lodged in his back?

 

2 things.........

- rankings were flawed back then. they were flawed and most of the time the unchallenged overhyped white fighters got the benefit of the doubt while the proven avoided more talented black fighters were left off. There were some fighters that liston may have beat(that werent ranked in the top 10) yet their werent 5 heavyweights in the world at the time that could beat them. This happened alot in joe louis reign. Guys like harry bobo, Lee Q murray, turkey Thompson getting screwed. same with marcianos reign guys like bob baker and clarence henry getting screwed.

- 2ndly, It should be added liston also lost to rahman and mccall



Lewis beat:
Weaver
Ruddock (ranked)
Mason
Tucker (ranked)
Bruno (ranked)
McCall (ranked)
Mercer (ranked)
Morrison (ranked)
Akinwande (ranked)
Golota (ranked)
Grant (ranked)
Tua (ranked)
Briggs (ranked)
Holyfield I (ranked)
Holyfield II (ranked)
Botha
Rahman (ranked)
Tyson (ranked)
V. Klitschko (ranked)



Liston beat


26 year old Floyd Patterson 2x- better than any heavyweight on that list, including a 38 year old holyfield.

27 year old Eddie Machen - Better than 7/8 of that list

26 year old Zora Folley- Better than 7/8 of that list

26 year old Cleveland Williams 2x- Better than 7/8 of that list.

34 year old Nino Valdez- lets call him and 34 year old frank bruno a push. both big punchers with strong jabs.

24 year old Wayne Bethea

23 year old Johnny Summerlin 2x

27 year old Mike Dejohn

25 year old Roy Harris

all of these men were top 10 heavyweights in the world(regardless of ranking) when liston tangled with them.

others:

Henry Clark
Gerhard Zhech
Bert Whitehurst
Willie Besmanoff
Chuck Wepner
Albert Westphal




Lennox may have the edge in depth, but liston has the edge in quality.





Take note: All except 1 of these opponents liston beat were at the prime of there careers, while many of those top notch names on lennox resume were not near there primes when they tangled with lennox.



lets take a look..........


Lennox beat


38 year old evander holyfield- Many ringsiders scored the 2nd fightfor holyfield, and this series could easily be 1-1. Holyfield would lose to ruiz shortly afterward, he was defintley over the hill. coming into the lennox bout he looked dreadful against vaugn bean.


33 year old frank bruno

36 year old ray mercer

34 year old vitali klitschko

32 year old francis Botha

36 year old tony tucker

37 year old mike tyson

40 year old mike weaver

Tommy Morrison- Sick with a disease when he fought Sonny




All of the top men Sonny liston beat(outside of 34 year old nino valdez) were under the age of 30.




Domination:

Sonny Liston dominated all of the top men he beat without any controversy.


Williams 2x , patterson 2x, harris, folley, bethea, dejohn, Valdez all fell in 6 rounds or less

The decision over eddie machen, Liston won 10 out of the 12 rounds against a master boxer.

He won 2 close decisions over johnny summerlin in his closest bouts, but this was sonnys 6th and 7th pro fights.

Muhammad Ali- quit on his stool in 7th with scorecards even, but ali in command clearly.



As you see Lennox didnt have anywhere near this kind of domination against top fighters he faced




Vitali Klitschko- outboxed and Behind on scorecards. in fairness lennox was over the hill.

Frank Bruno- outboxed....I dont know if you seen the fight, but Bruno clearly won at least 4 of the first 6 rounds. thanx to lennox finally utilizing his underated left hook he finished off bruno. again a tense struggle.

evander holyfield- very close 2nd fight, holy was 38 and looked old and battle worn

oliver mccall- knocked out with one punch

hasim rahman- knocked out by one punch

ray mercer- dead even fight, huge struggle against 36 year old mercer. outboxed.



still as you see lennox clearly struggled alot more against top opponents than liston did

 

Classic Lennox nuthugger trying to put his prime 'inbetween' his 2 embarrasing knockout losses. you admit his prime was around the time when 36 year old ray mercer outjabbed and outboxed lennox lewis? and around the time lennox struggled vastly against 38 year old evander holyfield in a match many believe holy should have got the nod(i had it 114-114)



Sonny Listons prime was 1958-1960. not that after 1960....he fought only a total of 8 rounds until 1964! EIGHT ROUNDS IN FOUR YEARS!! if thats not rusty i dont know what is. He got older during these years, got overweight, and looked slower and less sharp in the ring by 1964.


Liston was also around 34 when he fought ali, not 32. his birth certificate was misplaced and many people misguide the year he was born.