Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Yes, but i don't say "Lewis' KO losses DONT COUNT!! HE WAS UNPREPARED!!" as you do with Liston quitting.

being 215lbs didn't seem to matter one bit as he still destroyed Patterson in 1 second less than the first time.

By the way, did you know that boxers spar in between fights?

Yeah, he really looked like a man past his prime when he destroyed Patterson in 100 or so seconds. atsch

Yeah keep talking about Liston's opponents wasting potential, "would've been" etc. Ed Sanders would've been champ right? Let's go by the facts. Summerlin was ranked for an extremely short amount of time and that was not during the Liston fights.

What is your evidence that Liston's trainers told the sparring partners to slow down? I've never heard that and it sounds like the last advice i'd give if i was training him.

Certainly the press didn't think so. "Liston looked his awesome self" was the comment, as he was drilling the speed and heavy bag to the tune of Night Train.

No, then again, it's hard to lose anything when a fighters prime lasts 2 years long as you're making Liston's out to be.

He was a bit slower against Tua than he was against, say, McCall II or Mercer. But he was definitely in his prime, yes. His prime was from 1992 to 2003.

How is that speculation? Lewis beat the crap out of him for 10 rounds with all he had (needless to say, Mercer landed plenty in return, but that's not the point here). Damiani did the same. Holyfield hit him often. Mercer's defense was weak yet he was only knocked down once in his prime, on a body shot, nothing reflecting on the chin. Wlad gave him one of the worst beatings i've ever seen a heavyweight take over 6 rounds yet he was floored only once, when he was 40. Liston never took this kind of punishment, so no, i wouldn't say it's speculation.

Totally different fights and fighters. Mercer came forward and took everything Lewis had, while Lewis was fighting aggressive. Most of this fight took place in the trenches, not so much a jabbing contest.

Bruno stalked forward robotically and indeed he did well, but here's some news for you: winning 4 of the first 6 rounds doesn't win you a fight.

Since you're on Liston's side, i advise you stay away from bringing up "mental toughness". Liston doesn't score very well there.

And yeah, i rather pick someone who wasn't knocked down by a journeyman lightheavyweight and proved his heart plenty than someone who was knocked down and lost to a lightheavyweight journeyman and quit on his stool later.

Ah yes, the great heavyweight champion 180lbs Marty Marshall wasn't inferior.

Actually listons arm isnt extended either, you can see his elbow bent. besides they both were at a different angle while throwing the punch so we arnt able to get proper judgement. so this arguement is flawed.

Fact remains liston has an 84" reach
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Why do you keep repeating the same points? Liston's wasn't bent, Liston is the one on the left in case you assume that the big guy is Liston (did you notice how small Liston looks when he's in with a real heavyweight for a change?).

Again you base your argument on speculation which is irrelevant. The ring magazine are the most objective rankings you'll get. You think they were perfect in the 90's?

 

Herbie Hide looked like a fighter too. But he was **** (although much more accomplished than Westphal, who would've been totally unknown if not for getting knocked out by Liston).

Alright, well we're not gonna agree here.

They all landed on Lewis on time or another. Just watch this video:
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Golota crude?
He did it all, throw combinations, duck, slip, jab, preventing Bowe from getting his uppercuts off.
And he has a full 60 pounds on undersized heavies like Patterson.

Bowe was the first man to stop Holyfield in his very previous fight. Is this the same way Liston was all of a sudden way past his prime when he was beat one fight after he stopped Patterson again?
Bowe was on a steady decline from the moment he won the title, Golota was the first one to really capitalize on it.

By the way, why do you mentioned Terrel was 6'6? You don't have the bigger is better disease again have you?

Just the fact that you have to go by monthly ratings shows how desperate you are to pump them up. None of them could sustain a ranking for an extended period of time.

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Fact remains that he retired with a grand total of ONE contender beat in his entire career, zero if we go by yearly rankings. You can spin it all you want, but this is not impressive at all.

 

Rankings have always been flawed to a small degree and always will be. They were also in the 90's. It evens out.


I wrote the names you gave for Liston behind Lewis'. To help you, i also added whether or not they were ranked in the yearly rankings. Let's compare:


Lewis beat: Liston beat:
Weaver Patterson (ranked)
Ruddock (ranked) Patterson (ranked)
Mason Machen (ranked)
Tucker (ranked) Williams
Bruno (ranked) Williams
McCall (ranked) Valdes
Mercer (ranked) Bethea
Morrison (ranked) Summerlin
Akinwande (ranked) Summerlin
Golota (ranked) Folley (ranked)
Grant (ranked) Harris
Tua (ranked) DeJohn (ranked)
Briggs (ranked) Clark
Holyfield I (ranked) Zhech
Holyfield II (ranked) Besmanoff
Botha Wepner
Rahman (ranked) Westphal
Tyson (ranked)
V. Klitschko (ranked)

A mere five of Liston's opponents were ranked compared to 17 of Lewis' opponents were. I mean, it's not even close. You can spin things all you want to by your own biased judgement that they should be in the top10, but they weren't.

Oh, and Patterson most certainly isn't better than anyone on Lewis' resume, are you kidding me? Klitschko would beat him down like he did Williams. Tua would knock him out easily. Well, i can go on, but the list is too long. If you think a 180lbs heavyweight with no chin and average power can beat those, than you are really stretching things.

Only in your mind.

Morrison sick with a disease? Yeah, i guess it was aids that knocked him down and not those uppercuts, left hooks and right hands. I've never in my entire life heard this excuse to discredit Lewis' win over Morrison.

You listed all their ages, but this is a bad comparison. Different era's. In the 90's, fighters had much more extended amateur careers and fought less often, which is why most of them weren't worn down physically by the age of 30 and gained a good amount of experience only there, which is why most were in their primes in that age. Just look at Lewis himself.

By the way, you've only printed the names of Lewis' opponents with age over 30. I know that this list looks just as long as Liston's list, but Lewis beat a lot more guys. In psychology, this is called Selection Bias. Look it up on Wikipedia if you want.

That's true, although it should be noted that:
A) Lewis faced 3 times more ranked contenders than Liston, which is lot easier to be dominant over
B) Liston's dominance was in a mere 3 years and after that it ended. You can select several 3 year periods of Lewis' career and say he dominated just the same.

Unlike Liston, Lewis dug really deep and managed to win this one. What did Liston do when faced with a ranked contender at age 37? He got knocked out cold by one punch. And Klitschko is miles ahead of Martin.

Again a nice case of selection bias. Hey! Let's have a look at Liston's fights:

-Marshall: an undersized heavyweight that was never ranked broke the big bear's jaw and won a decision and knocked him down in a rematch.
-Summerlin: Two very close fights, look at how Liston struggled with this man who was only ranked for a very small period of time
-Ali: Liston quit on his stool after 6 rounds of light punishment. In the rematch he either quit, was knocked out or took a dive.
-Martin: The first next contender he fights after Ali knocks him out cold with a single punch.

As you can see, Liston clearly struggled a lot more against top opponents than Lewis did.

See how selection bias works?

 

And many have him at 6'0.

Nope, i've seen the fight. Bruno won 4 of the first 6 rounds at best. Score one round differently and it's even. How is that "badly outboxing" someone? What would you call it if he won 5 or 6 of those rounds?

Bethea was a journeyman and he beat DeJohn only once. Carter and McCutry were journeyman too. The type of fighters that beat up a lot of losing records fighters and lose every time when stepping up. I suggest you look at their records; it isn't pretty.

Valdes was not ranked in the 1959 rankings, sorry.

And that last argument is just pathetic.
Perhaps i should go say that Lewis beat Holyfield so bad that after that he would lose to Ruiz? Clearly he was on a winning streak going in, including beating Tyson.

You call Liston's heart even with Lewis and it's my vision that's clouded with bias?

Yeah, Valdes is one of the only guys Liston fought who was 210+lbs. He still wasn't ranked though, contrary to the 17 210+lbs ranked opponents of Lewis. No comparison.

Again you are making stuff up SuzieQ. Liston took Valdes' punches flush without blinking? This one is not even on film!!!
I don't know about the DeJohn one, i've never seen it, is it on film or are you making this up as well?

How about Liston being stunned on film by journeyman Whitehurst, or Listons staggering across the ring from a right hand from Howard King (another journeyman for you)?

Hard punching Patterson?
The man barely has KO's over notable opponents. Moore who was old and a lightheavyweight and Johansson who had a glass jaw to start with.
I'd like to see what happens when Lewis fights a 180lbs "hard punching" guy with no chin.

Yeah, Ed Sanders would've been great if not for Liston...... sigh...

Have you even seen the fight? Lewis threw a left hook right hand, not a jab. No left hand was ever dropped and McCall got over it. Lewis threw left hook right hand and McCall throw two punches at the same time. From what you say it's painfully obvious you don't know what you're talking about. You're making up a "flaw" based on something that didn't even happen.

Agreed.

Zora Folley has one of the weakest jaws i've ever seen. Ali flattened him with basically the first combination that landed, and he barely sat down on that nor was a hard puncher. Folley vs Liston (or any puncher) is a KO waiting to happen. Dito with Patterson.

Sorry but i just never see Liston throw quick combinations like Lewis did against Mercer, Holyfield etc.

By the way, you just stated that Liston was way past his prime when he fuoght Patterson the second time. And now you bring up this great combination that he threw there. You just keep contradicting yourself whenever it suits your argument.

 

when was Liston ko'd by Marty Marshall?

 

On Nino Valdes' retirement--I actually remember reading about why he retired back when he retired in 1959. After defeating Brian London, he was scheduled to fight George Chuvalo in Toronto. The routine prefight medical exam revealed that Valdes had cataracts. His boxing license was then suspended for his own protection.

 

An old Valdez vs George Chuvalo might have been interesting.

 

True. It was a great match. Not worth risking blindness for, though.

 

I'm not claiming that the guy had the credentials of Sam Langford or Jerry Quarry. And frankly, I agree that his body of works wasn't all that great. All I'm saying is that he could have very conceivably been a dangerous opponent for a lot of guys in a head to head sense. Let's face it Suzie, the guy was a monster who was built like a mountain. He was never dominated by anyone in his career, including Lewis and Byrd whom he was leading against. He knocked out a lot of guys who were also big heavywieghts and rated at the time. He had a solid chin, and was never TRULEY stopped by anyone, at least not by a conventional knockout. His boxing ability was by no means stellar, but it wasn't terrible either. To think that he might have given some of the smaller heavyweights of the past trouble such as Patterson, Johansen, Marciano, and Frazier, is not a proposterous claim when we look at it honestly.

 

Sonny Liston had one of the best jabs in heavyweight history. Who knows if his two fights with Ali were controlled by the mob as some boxing historians conclude. Sure, Ali beat him twice but I find it hard to believe that Liston couldn't get up from that right hand that Ali landed. IMO, Liston took a dive in the second fight because maybe his life was on the line.

I used to criticize Lennox Lewis partly because of his performances against Oliver McCall, Hasim Rahman and Vladimir Klitschko. Also, Lewis was getting his butt whupped by Frank Bruno for six rounds and Shannon Briggs didn't know how to pace himself. Lewis has only won my favour over the last part of his career because he became more of a gentleman of the sport. He called himself a "pugilistic specialist" and I appreciate the fact that he's an athletic big man that can box. Rarely does Lewis try to Foremanize his opponent by trying to blast him out early, even though his right hand should be ranked high on the power scale, next to Shavers, Foreman and Tyson. Lewis prefers to beat his opponents by making them stop punching meanwhile he gets criticized for not having the killer instinct and knockout finishing skills.

As for the fight itself, I think Liston would knock Lewis out in the middle rounds and finish him unlike Frank Bruno. If Lennox comes to fight in his best shape, I think he could probably out box Liston and keep him on the outside easy with his jab.