Sonny Liston vs Mike Tyson Overall

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Dance84, Feb 12, 2020.

who would win

  1. Liston By Knockout

  2. Liston By Decision

  3. Tyson By Knockout

  4. Tyson By Decision

  5. Draw

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Liston was knocking people out even right before he died...he even stopped Wepner (who actually knocked down Ali in their title fight many years later!)

    Just watch the videos from '67 up to his death. He was NO JOKE (especially for a 37+ year old boxer).
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  2. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    Marciano was like 184lb, his median opp. was 189lb, its not that much. Don´t use the avarage because of this 254lb Fattie he fought.
    Tyson was an avarage 218lb in his fights I think, which is more than Thomas, Berbick, Williams and Spinks. Tubbs came a 15lb heavier with a little flab, Tucker was even. That makes Smith, Biggs and Bruno the only bigger guys he fought, which isn´t that much. Four guys were lighter than him, 3 of them were bigger, Ruddock afterwards.
    I have no problem with your reasoning of Liston beeing even, its fine for me (I´ll explain something like this later in the post), but I have a problem with absurd reasoning, which brought me here with #1 Sonny Liston Nuthugger Mr.ThinEel in the first place.


    Which is exactly this sort of reasoning! Who of this guys "Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Ali..." did Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, Sonny Liston, Lennox Lewis, Wlad, Dempsey, Rocco or Joe Louis fight and beat.....?:duh
    Now Larry Holmes isn´t in the league of a Foreman, because he got no "bullet proof" Joe Frazier on his resume, or Tyson isn´t in the league of Frazier himself, because there´s no layoff-clowning Ali in his, Lewis, or anybody else fightlist either?? 2/3 Ali-wins Ken Norton must be some sort of H2H-Monster....oh wait...
    Therefore, one problem of rating boxers H2H is reducing a fighters prime to hand-picked single fighters reenforcing the argument. You could reduce Frazier to ONE NIGHT and argue a 50 pages of a single thread doing so.
    Its
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    in many cases, and also heroization of single ATGs over lower title-holders and contenders, instead of seeing a different clash of styles, which is imho much more important. Larry Holmes going 49-0 is much more boxing, all sorts of different styles, than Joe Frazier benefiting from a single fighter who couldn´t hurt him.

    As far as I know, there are two fighters out there who might replicate a Tyson-like knockout run in the later 80s with a couple of title defenses: Foreman and Wilder. Wilder took more rounds to stop his fellows.
    He wasn´t the P4P #1, a feared unbeatable force for no reason, resulting in #1 sports upset in history.
    You have a problem here, because Liston is simply more unproven in that league, power also (his main asset).
    This doesn´t mean I have a problem with anyone making him the favorite or even with Tyson, its the type of reasoning knocking on my door.
    For example: Intimidation blabla. We have no idea if either Liston or Tyson would fear the opposite, its just guessing nonsense.

    Why not stick for boxing style arguing for a moment....?
    A real advantage for Liston imho is, he got an additional option dealing with opponents: Either using power or boxing from a good reach with the jab, while Tyson needed to come in to win. I´m not sure if Tyson is able to box the way he did with Thomas or Tucker winning rounds. Liston got a little more room to adept here imho.

    Nevertheless I have a big problem with a speed disadvantage, imho Liston is not so proven against punchers Tyson fought either, nor does he have a clear KO-artist pattern in his %.

    Oh sure, thats why you got no problem making dozens of Boxing Defense Videos on YT with one fellow, while generating a single 2_1/2 minute snippet of broken jawed Sonny Liston in the other case:copas::crazylick:

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    @RulesMakeItInteresting To see great boxing debate with #1 Liston fan, just delete the (delete) in that link. It can´t be linked here without.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  3. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Really important points here, @GOAT Primo Carnera
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
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  4. Claw4075

    Claw4075 New Member Full Member

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    Mike Tyson destroys him under 3 rounds.

    Sonny Liston had a worse resume than Mike did, beat far worse competition consisting of journeymen, LHWs and nobodies. Everything about him was overrated.
     
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  5. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Afraid of Baboons... Full Member

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    LOL

    Tyson was MUCH quicker, more powerful, WAY more athletic, durable, skilled, elusive and just so much better in every sense of the world. I don't understand how tf all these people ride Liston so much. Here is the kicker for you "Lol Mike Tyson fanboy" ****s HW is a steaming pile so nice try. Show me on film where Liston remotely displayed Tyson's level of skill?
     
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  6. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Can't wait for the two to meet in the center of the ring and watch Mikey stare into the face of Sonny Liston and wet his pants. Tyson was playing a thug, Sonny was one. A short armed fighter giving up over a foot in reach is going to wade in on Sonny throwing hooks? As Emanuel Steward said, once past the first 5 rounds his threat diminishes a lot. Sonny is a better boxer, is stronger, and one helluva lot meaner than Mike ever was. Style will dictate this fight and after eating some of Sonny's thudding heavy punches he'll hesitate in his attack and eat heavy, heavy jabs. Just like the second Holyfield fight when he realizes what's coming he'll look for a way out
     
  7. Trevor Diamante

    Trevor Diamante New Member Full Member

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    Yeah there's tyson fanboying here(In this thread). Read up on Cus D'Amato referencing Sonny Liston, No swarming fighter in history is beating Liston or George Foreman his protege. It's just a matter of physics. Liston was an immensely skilled conservative boxer-puncher, didn't look for knockouts, but at 6 1 81-84 inch reach he was immensely strong. Liston destroyed many of the fighter's Patterson blatantly ducked. Liston was being ducked by Patterson so bad that even JFK had to speak out. Liston destroyed an undisputed champion in the 1st round the only fighter to do so. This idea Liston was a plodder or a slugger was a myth that had to do with his stoic gritty demeaner and the perception thereof. Liston used lots of head control, had a varied jab that he could flick or push and he also bobbed and weaved very well for a relatively long fighter. He parried and slipped shots, and this is even apparent in his bad outings against young then Clay. Liston would have KO'd tyson within 5-8. Simple was too big of a puncher , too long and too strong. It's the same peekaboo he figured out ripping with upper cuts into Patterson's bobbing. Are we going to pretend Buster Douglas 25-1 underdog against peak Tyson didn't happen? Liston used to tell Foreman in their sparring sessions after taking his best shot " no son" and throw right back. As Dundee said , this notion of the unbeatable Tyson is EXTREMELY mythical. Even at his peak, several HWs in history (Including some around when he fought) could've beaten him.
     
  8. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

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    No he was not, this has been covered in great detail in many threads you can look up here.
    Liston was at earliest born in 1930, so even during the second fight with Ali he was at maximum 34 years old.
    He may have been several years younger, but not any older...
    If he was somewhat older much of the timeline of his life & what he did would not only be unaccounted for, but would contradict what would be logical & likely, including what ages he was with & left family.

    Liston's own accounts of his ages varied, but none were very different from what the other plausible evidence describes.
    Note below that he believed he was born in 1932, in one account he seems to suggest he was born as late as 1933-all of which would put him at most in his early 30's during both fights with Ali.

    "Date of birth
    There is no official record of Liston's birth. His family's home state of Arkansas did not make birth certificates mandatory until 1965.
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    His family, but not one Charles (or Sonny) Liston, can be found in the 1930 census, and in the 1940 census he was listed as 10 years old.
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    It has been suggested Liston himself may not have known what year he was born, as he was not precise on the matter. Liston believed his date of birth to be May 8, 1932 and used this for official purposes
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    but by the time he won the world title an aged appearance added credence to rumors that he was actually several years older.
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    One writer concluded that Liston's most plausible date of birth was July 22, 1930, citing census records and statements from his mother during her lifetime.
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    Youth in St. Louis
    Tobe Liston inflicted whippings so severe on Sonny that the scars were still visible decades later. "The only thing my old man ever gave me was a beating," Liston said.
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    In 1946, Helen Baskin, along with some of her children, moved to
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    , to seek factory work.
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    Liston—aged around 13, according to his later reckonings—remained in Arkansas with his father. The following year, Sonny—determined to reunite with his mother and siblings—thrashed the pecans from his brother-in-law's tree and sold them in
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    . With the proceeds, he traveled to St. Louis to live with his mother. Liston tried going to school but quickly left after jeers about his illiteracy; the only employment he could obtain was sporadic and exploitative.
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    Liston turned to crime and led a gang of thugs who committed muggings and armed robberies. Because of the shirt he wore during robberies, the St. Louis police called Liston the "Yellow Shirt Bandit." When caught in January 1950, Liston gave his age as 20, while the
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    reported that he was 22.
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    Convicted and sentenced to five years in
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    , Liston started his prison time on June 1, 1950.
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    So this is heavily citationed, & unless you have anything beyond rumors or what you have heard, something with verifiable sources to investigate, I hope you will be unlike so many who are Ego Bound & will defend whatever they want to believe & what makes them believe they are correct, & acknowledge the available evidence.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    But as per the bigger question of who would win...You can make a good case either way.
    Some opinions are two extreme & biased. They were both skilled boxers, perhaps the edge goes to Tyson.
    Tyson was much faster.
    Liston had a dramatically longer reach.
    There are claims in both directions about who is stronger. They were both very strong; again anyone who states there is a big difference absent any evidence is biased.
    Tyson was shorter & with lower body fat was ~ 5 lbs. heavier, so he had more muscle mass.
    But Tyson also was often pushed back, so like Ali had more functional than gym strength in the clinch, Tyson was more like the opposite.

    Liston hit harder with individual punches, Tyson more devestating with quick combinations.
    I pick Liston because I believe he has the stylistic advantage.
    Also although it is unfair to conflate later Tyson with his earlier determination, he did lose some steam by & after the mid rounds.
    Liston was never nearly taken out in his prime, so it is unlikely he would fall early-or not get up if dropped-& then odds favor Liston.
     
  9. sauhund II

    sauhund II Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Your hero was sooooooooo mean that he flat out quit twice in his so called prime against a green unproven loud mouth Clay.......and then did the ultimate quit job when he shot up his last Heroin trip..................Mike Gerard Tyson is still kicking when Liston was already six feet under as far as age is concerned while filling stadiums/pay per views and is most likely after Ali's passing the most recognized Fighter on the planet.

    Sonny "ugly Bear" Liston is the most hysterically over rated Heavy in history.
     
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  10. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree with a lot of what you wrote. To me a lot of it is down to the fact that Mike had one style, while Liston proved he could acclimate/accomodate to another's style. Being able to change one's approach just enough to adapt is something Mike never really did, if he got foiled early he kind of went on a much more cautious auto pilot.

    Granted, I'm completely aware of and in awe of the fact that in the 80s that one-trick-pony style was DEVASTATINGLY effective and amazing to watch.
     
  11. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Buster Douglas
     
  12. Trevor Diamante

    Trevor Diamante New Member Full Member

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    One of his 25 siblings mentioned him being born around " The Great War", and he definitely did indeed seem old to many of his peers. We'll never know, because he was a reticent man and the lack of record keeping then in the Deep South. But it IS indeed possible he was older than he knew.
     
  13. Trevor Diamante

    Trevor Diamante New Member Full Member

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    Yep. Countless opponents mention the utter fear Liston drove into their hearts, and how he would break jaws and looses teeth with his jabs. In fact in his last loss where he walked into a great punch, the man had injuries so severe he never boxed again. Liston is UNDERRATED by fans, aptly rated by experts and sportswriters. The man beat up a police officer and took his gun, breaking his knee in the process. He wouldn't have feared any man to enter the ring, and contrary to what people have you think this indomitable will matters in the ring, ESPECIALLY against the kind of frontrunning destruct and destroy that was the mythical "Prime" Tyson. Look at the Tillis fight , and how much Tyson struggled ---many fans think he won , including Tillis to this day. Liston was very similarly sized, EXTREMELY stronger and would not have broken all the rules devised to beat Tyson. (Fun fact--- Tillis broke every single one Dundee prescribed, and still drew him close). Bonecrusher, Tucker , have a lot to say for fanboys going on about "superior in every department".
     
  14. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Because of styles, I have to go with Liston. With two all-time greats it almost always pays to go with the styles.
     
  15. RockyJim

    RockyJim Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Met Sonny Liston in Plymouth Ma. in November 1964...(shook his hand)...while he was training for the rematch with Ali up in Maine in May 1965. You know....you can have the "ramrod" jab...the power...the stare down "glare"...the speed...and everything else! If you don't have "heart"...then all the rest of it means nothing!
     
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