Sonny Liston Vs Mike Tyson

So, Tyson would move in and out to Liston and box him like Ali? :huh That´s a new one

 

People under estimate Tysons boxing ability, in his prime he slipper and countered in the pocket and stepped back to get out of range, Tyson was great at using angles to find openings. Hes just so much the better boxer and so much faster in this match up

Liston would also be 1 of the smallest men Tyson faced

 

I dont know how you could make a statement like that? The majority of Tyson's game was infighting. Combinations to the body and head, double bodyshots, coming forward behind a good stiff jab to setup his combinations. Id say he did just fine on the inside for an ATG.
Tyson was technically sound at his best, and really a complete fighter for such a short man. If he wasnt he most certainly would have been outboxed on several occasions like a David Tua type fighter, but he chopped down many a good mobile boxers, using sound boxing skills and very good infighting, probably one of the best really. No way can you even compare Wlads flaws to Tyson.

 

You mistake mid-range for infight.

 

You ever see Tyson punch out of a clinch? You ever see him tie up rock back and forth on the inside to setup combos to the body and then come up the center with the uppercut? Thats infighting. Ive seen Tyson jab guys 6'4 6'5 on the outside too and just move with them before getting close. Tyson at his best was good at all ranges, but being shorter his modus was always to get inside and at his best he did it quite well technically behind a good jab.
Forget about Tyson post prison, Im talking about the guy defending his undisputed titles.

 

Well, I disagree their. He showed some shadows of infighting skill at times that´s true but that´s not comparable to the infighting game of a Johnson for example. And most of the time, even during his prime, he just did nothing inside, he just stood there and waited for the ref to break it up.
And throwing a jab and than moving to midrange is not long range boxing.

 

Id say 75-80% of Tysons KO's were created on the inside, if thats doing nothing Im confused. If jabbing a guy like Holmes and Biggs and moving with them to get close isnt long range boxing, I dont know what is either? If you want to say he ddint box using a jab and moving backwards thats pretty obvious, but moving with a guy and using his jab to offset theirs or keep them from moving forward to him would certainly be considered long range boxing in my book.

 

No, because Holyfield fought SMART, and he didn't come at Tyson. Liston doesn't fight smart. He can't cut off the ring, followed Ali and Machen like a clueless zombie around the ring in a straight line. If you want to speak about technically better, what about footwork? See Tyson cut the ring off vs Holmes for instance. Plus, Holyfield has an iron chin and fast hands/feet, unlike Liston.

Just because he doesn't have the physical dimension to do everything, doesn't mean he's not a sound technician. I know that "Tyson couldn't in-fight" is a popular phrase here, followed by the usual Duran ball-licking, but Tyson, although lazy in the inside, could be devastating there. Watch him land a monster left hook on Tubbs on the inside. The right to the body, right uppercut combo: inside. Remember the one that broke Fergusson's nose?

Put Tyson in the ring with undersized, chinless Patterson and see how great an in fighter he looks.

He'd be the smallest significant opponent that Tyson had faced. And vice versa, Liston never beat a ranked contender as big as Tyson who had any ability at all. He's not only up against something bigger than he's ever faced, but also against someone far superior than anyone he ever faced, outside of Clay (who beat him easily).

 

:-( I thought better of you.

 

Well, I disagree here and still think you mistake midrange with infight. Tyson could infight. He showed it. He just didn do it most of the time. And throwing a jab and then moving inside is not long range boxing. :bart

 

Okay, i'm exaggerating, but let me ask you:

-How many boxers have 20-30 career knockdowns, not including days when they're far past their best, and still are considered to have a strong jaw?
-Of all heavyweight champions, how many have a weaker jaw than Patterson?

And therein lies the truth.

 

Tyson is no inside technician but I agree he could generate some power from a short distance.

Here's Liston taking the fight to a 6'3, 210 lb opponent:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWbpM99wD2M[/ame]

Watch from about 5 minutes onwards.

Despite his long arms he didn't seem to have any problems fighting that type of a fight. Tyson on the other hand would hold and await to be separated by the referee. He was no different from Floyd Patterson or Jose Torres in that regard, D'Amato didn't teach his fighters to fight on the inside.

 

to all those people who say tyson is way to fast for liston here is something to keep in mind.........:
floyd patterson was also very very fast... now i am not comparing tyson to patterson in terms of chin and power or weight.. i am just talking about speed.
and also let's keep in mind that mike wasn't at his best (be it fysical or psychological) when he fought guys he couldn't "bully" around. guys who didn't backed down to him.

 

He's using educated movement which does come forward now and then, but is mostly counter punching. Liston plods forward and leads. Big difference. That wasn't Tyson at his best, by the way.

That's one way to put it. Another way to put it is that he got the **** kicked out of him until he found a good punch, when Williams' lack of chin kicked in and that's all she wrote. The "from 5:25" you put in there is convenient because i doesn't show the bad sides.

True, no relevance. The fight was close, and deductions are there for a reason: you're breaking the rules and gaining an unfair advantage, for which you lose points. It's not like you can say the fight went the same way if he didn't throw all those low blows, so he won a comfortable decision.

Watch him at his best, against an unranked fighter:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWbpM99wD2M[/ame]

Now compare that to Tyson, against top4 contender:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MY3RtJUrD8[/ame]

Do you really think they're even close in handspeed? Footspeed?

Tell you what. I'll list all linear champions from Johnson on (no footage of the others), and you tell me which you think have quicker hands than Liston. I'm interested in what you think, i'll list the ones that i think have faster hands in bold:

Johnson
Willard
Dempsey
Tunney
Schmeling
Sharkey
Carnera
M. Baer - close
Braddock
Louis
Charles
Walcott
Marciano
Patterson
Johansson
(Liston)
Clay
Ellis
Frazier
Foreman
L. Spinks
Holmes
M. Spinks
Tyson
Douglas
Holyfield
Bowe
Moorer
Briggs
Lewis
V.K.
W.K.

A few are close and could be argued both ways, but i think there are few champs with slower paws than him.

Thrash???? He didn't land a single clean blow all night. He basically won on workrate, but his so highly ranked jab was completely neutralized (as it was by the only other skilled boxer he faced, Ali).

Bruno is a good example. Watch the right uppercut/left hook that finishes him. One of the most devastating combinations i've ever seen.

Why is it no excuse? You don't really think a midget heavyweight should dance on his toes and use a T-rex paw-like jab against his 6'5" opponents, do you? Wide guys must rely on power punching and getting on the inside (but you claim Tyson can't fight on the inside?).

The other guy ignored my questions, but i'll re-state them for you:

1. How many champions went down more often than him?
2. How many champions would you consider to have a better jaw than Patterson?
3. Can you really imagine someone else getting knocked down by someone making his pro debut and going on to be a journeyman?

Yes, but Williams was pretty mediocre and unranked on both occasions. He only beat one contender during his entire career.

That's true. He gave them better fights than Liston gave the lighter hitting Clay, though.