Sonny Liston vs Muhammed Ali

Sonny didnt cheat in either. Its my belief they never had a fair fight. I guess well never know.

 

No.
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/liston-didn-t-blind-ali-6987354.html
https://ibb.co/XyFb6Nm

 

I thinks it’s all there on camera.
Liston can be suspected of shady behaviour he was a mob owned fighter but I don’t think so he did his best.
Ali just seriously hurt him that was no acting, he tried to rise flopped to the floor and Ali runs around thinking it’s over. Walcott lets them go at it again and Sonny just covers up unable to defend himself.

 

Aside from the link provided by another poster, the referee checked Liston’s gloves and didn’t find anything

 

The first fight was absolutely on the level. Liston didn’t take Ali seriously and spent too much time partying, and the worst example of him not taking Ali seriously was thinking he could “get by” with a bum shoulder after it manifested itself during training. Then he actually got in the ring with Ali and found out quickly he’d made a bad mistake, that he was in there with a historically elite opponent who was willing to hit him and that he had trouble hitting. I don’t think Liston juiced the gloves.

The missed opportunity for Liston was the rematch in Boston that was called off because of Ali’s appendectomy. From all I’ve read Liston got serious and got himself into excellent shape physically and mentally and then it all blew up, and whether it’s true or not one biography of Liston I read said he went straight for a liquor bottle when he heard the fight was off.

Lewiston was a complete cluster f**k on every possible level, including as I’ve noted Robert Goulet’s butchery of the national anthem. I think Ali did connect with that right hand, hard, and Liston was legitimately knocked down, but exactly what happened after that or before the fight Liston took to his grave and no one will ever know with metaphysical certitude.

 

ones a news article from ye olden days and the other is quoting dundee.

 

I agree with everything you said except the KD. It's just an extreme outlier in Liston's career.

 

Spot on!! ESPECIALLY your analysis of the first fight! Sonny thought he could simply give Ali that "hungry lion" stare and he'd fall over in a dead faint! He was WAYYYYY overconfident and had no idea what he was up against!

Regarding the 2nd fight--supposedly Liston really got himself in condition prior to Ali having to postpone with his hernia condition and Sonny subsequently lost his "edge" afterwards. But I don't think it would have made a difference if the bout went off at the regularly scheduled date. Ali was just too fast and skilled for Liston at that stage-it would have been an even worse beating than the first fight IMHO.

 

I've been able to perceive the injury to Liston's left in the Patterson rematch, just as Sonny's manager Jack Nilon claimed. Liston did all his damage with his less vaunted right in that one.

While I won't break it down for you here (maybe later), I've been able to pinpoint the exact moment young Clay's head made contact below where Sonny's treated cut was located, transferring the Monsel's solution from head to head.


Rematch. In their first bout, Ali buckled Liston significantly with a right, driving back near a neutral corner. In Lewiston, Ali's right was perfectly placed and timed just when Sonny's left foot was off the floor for repositioning. Liston privately told his wife Gerry that while the knockdown was legitimate, he could've beaten the count if Ali had gone directly to a neutral corner. However, George Chuvalo inadvertently validated a full count from knockdown by describing nystagmus in Sonny's eyes.

To me, the true controversy from Lewiston is Jersey Joe Walcott abdicating his authority as referee in deference to non official Nat Fleischer, and in fact JJW never again refereed a match.

Sonny trained himself down to 208 for their originally scheduled rematch in Boston, but writing for Sports Illustrated ahead of that bout before Ali's emergency inguinal hernia surgery forced a postponement, Gilbert Rogin predicted from his close observations of Liston and his training that there would be no difference in the outcome of their rematch. According to Rogin, Ali had grown half an inch, gained two inches on his biceps and thighs, an inch on his forearms, and his weight had been up to 240 for his pilgrimage to Africa in June 1964. (Let's remember that Ali was barely 22 years old for their first match, so the increase in height and muscularity is to be expected. His peak weight when fully grown was 212, although he was at 217 for Foreman and 220 for Dunn.)

 

No.

 

The punch Ali hit him with couldn't even crush a grape.