Sonny Liston vs Muhammed Ali

Muhammad Ali was a superior prize fighter to Sonny Liston (who was historically elite, he’s in my Top 10, I’m not dissing him). Again, everything … and I do mean everything … connected with the Lewiston affair was utter merde and a complete cluster f**k. But so much of the furor about Miami and Lewiston comes from people (hello Mr. Gallender) who even after 60 years can’t accept that Ali was the superior fighter and are looking for some validation of their belief that he couldn’t take Sonny in a fair, legitimate fight.

 

Any iteration of Muhammad Ali from 1964 to 1977 whups Liston. Ali was all wrong for him.

 

It would have made a huge difference. Liston would have been fully prepared and Ali was technically flawed. Liston saw the flaws in Ali and had a plan, he'd have KO'd him.

 

Ali did connect, but that punch couldn't even crush a grape. Liston simply fell down cause he was off balance.

 

I'm a HUGE fan of Sonny Liston and thought he was one of the all time greats! And he generally doesn't get enough credit for his overall boxing skill-which was considerable! But I honestly don't see him beating Ali at that stage of his career regardless of how well he prepared. Ali was just too fast and talented for Sonny in 1965.

NOW...if the late 1950's early 60's version of Sonny Liston fought Ali in 1965 I agree he's got a decent chance. I'd still make Ali around an 8-5 favorite but Sonny could definitely take him and it would not be a big upset!

Check out what Emanuel Steward has to say regarding a prime Liston facing Ali:

“When the match-up came [in 1964–65] it was just perfect timing for one, terrible timing for another guy who had slipped past his prime—but if they had fought, in like say ’58 or ’59, a prime Sonny Liston and a prime I would still say Cassius Clay or whatever—I don’t know. I don’t know. Sonny at that stage was just such a really powerful wrecking machine and I remember the fights he had with Cleveland Williams—oh my God. I don’t know, Sonny might have won if they would have fought at that time.”

 

How so?

 

Dude… no way you think he was genuinely trying to get up.

 

Bigger, faster, stronger, more endurance, busier. It was probably his eighth or ninth toughest fight.

 

Liston is far stronger and bigger in every way besides height.

 

This grape comment is a next day quote from the colorful Jimmy Cannon to Howard Cosell on a televised review panel which also included Jack Dempsey (who did not attend) and Rocky Marciano.

As I already posted, George Chuvalo (who was hoping to fight Sonny if he won) was making a scene in the ring yelling "Fix! Fix!" before inadvertently revealing Liston's nystagmus (side to side eye movements revealing legitimate neurological distress).

Meanwhile, Larry Merchant, Sports Illustrated's Tex Maule and every noteworthy boxer who saw it said it was a hard punch.

Jimmy Braddock said Ali's penultimate right hurt Sonny far more than many realized, and it is a head spinning bomb which causes Liston's head to dip far down. It draws a loud reaction from the spectators, and a camera's flash. (This is significant, because ringside photographers fixate on a boxer's feet to let them know when a hard punch is being executed. That's how images are captured at the instant of impact. The photographers themselves never see the punches.) Multiple flashes also go off with that final right.

Floyd Patterson (who was in the most ideal position to see it) called the dropper "a perfect right hand." Jose Torres agreed, "A very hard punch." Louis and Pep also saw it. (JJW was behind Liston when it connected.) Marciano said he put power in at the last instant, but Rocky didn't have the same perfect vantage point Patterson had.

Steve Ellis saw that punch and called it live for SportsVision. ("A right hand shot! A right hand shot on the chin!") You can hear the thud of the knockout punch as it connects (something I had not listened for before this post).

What frame by frame analysis of the original color footage (NOT colorized) reveals is the back of Sonny's head whiplashing sharply. (I can't find this resolution on YouTube currently. There is black and white footage which also shows the necessary resolution, but again, not currently on YouTube.) Something I previously hadn't noticed is that Ali's right elbow is tucked against his body perfectly, so his torque is optimal. Again, he'd already proved at the outset of round three in Miami Beach that he could cut and hurt Liston, and he was considerably more muscular and more powerful for Lewiston. This was also his first rematch, so he had the timing, rhythm and other anticipations down against an aging and extremely inactive opponent.

 

I just rewatched the second fight, multiple times, for the jillionth time.

Sonny Liston was not touching Ali that night, even if things had gone absolutely perfectly and it hadn’t been a total cluster. Mic drop.

 

In SI, before they were expected to square off in Boston with Sonny trained down to 208, Gilbert Rogin noted that Liston wasn't throwing straight right hands to the body in sparring. Nor, in Lewiston, did he attempt to cut off the ring, instead following Ali around, which Steve Ellis immediately suggested to be a mistake.

George Foreman corrected Sonny Liston's mistakes. Big George was a ring cutting master, taking that step to the right and unloading the right to the body, even forcing Ali to engage. What he did to Ken Norton in Caracas was textbook.

Had Liston prepared for the Boston rematch properly, he still would have been displaying that in Lewiston. Instead, he followed Ali around the ring while missing predictable body shots Ali blocked with his arms.

Sonny's punch resistance and motivation in Boston would've been greater at 208, but he still wouldn't have caught Ali, as he was never training to cut the ring off by intercepting to the right, then throwing straight rights to the body. (Incidentally, Karl Mildenberger was later able to actually double over Ali with his southpaw straight left to the body.)

The guy Ali was most worried about during his first title run was Henry Cooper. Muhammad trained himself down to 201 for that one. He warmed up by coming in at 208 for Brian London, and was only up to 204 for Mildenberger after Cooper II, again working hard in preparation for the German southpaw. (He won his Gold Medal against a southpaw, but Karl was the first professional to even challenge for the heavyweight title. Dunn became the second in 1976, but this time, when Ali stopped playing, he went directly to the right lead, dispensing with the hooks downstairs he used on Mildenberger.)

 

And as far as whether the punch was hard or not, I offer the high def video that was not available in real time but is on YouTube right now that shows Ali’s biceps muscles ripple from the force as the punch connects with Liston’s temple. It’s kind of tough to make your biceps muscles ripple from a punch that couldn’t have crushed a grape.

I am by no means saying that the punch was hard enough to put Liston down for a 10 count or that he couldn’t have gotten up and continued fighting, but I stand by my comment that it was a legit knockdown.

 

Under a different user name here in 2007, I made the same observation about Ali's muscles in that footage. (I reduced a super slow motion high def replay further to a speed of 0.25 on the YouTube settings to scrutinize it.)

George Chuvalo's inadvertent revelation of nystagmus is what suggests it could have been good for a full count. Later, Zora Folley would fall back in a similar way when desperately trying to beat the count.

Sonny flops onto his back 10 seconds after he goes down, at a moment Ali is NOT standing over him, but in the farthest neutral corner. Prior to that, it doesn't look to me as though Liston's aware Muhammad's standing there. Nine seconds after he hits the canvas, Sonny's on a very wobbly right knee, then he flops back. As Ali then circles from the nearer neutral corner to Liston's corner, Sonny rolls over to his right to push himself up by his gloves and off of his left knee. Liston's up 15 seconds after he goes down, and a second later, JJW reaches over to wipe his gloves before Fleischer's yelling distracts him, causing him to turn and walk over. Sonny and Muhammad also hear Fleischer and look over.

They face each other and resume action as JJW moves out of their sight. Sonny ducks a left-right, then another right as he begins retreating towards his own corner. He ducks a hook then moves back from a second hook as Walcott then cuts off a right to stop action.


Y'know what? I'm saying it! Based on the review I just made, yes, it would have been good for a full count if Ali hadn't interrupted it! On November 16, 1964 in Boston, this likely wouldn't have been the case with Sonny in top condition and nine months removed from five demanding rounds of competition, but as it actually happened in Lewiston, Liston would've been counted out if Ali had immediately gone to a neutral corner.


Jersey Joe Walcott never began a count, nor should he have. And as it happened, it should have been allowed to continue as it momentarily did. At least there would've been no controversy then.