Sonny Liston vs Ridddick Bowe

If you think Liston was "unaggressive" against Machen, I'd suggest re-watching round 11.

 

Will's posts are sometimes waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out there as you've alluded to above. That being said, I can't put my finger on it but somehow that sumbitch is one of my favorite posters. He's only 17 years old, but he's obviously very passionate and has some interesting opinions (even if some are "different" to say the least) and though his opinions may not be very popular (and that's being generous), he still stands by it, and doubles down on his stance when questioned by a vast majority. That takes balls especially at his age, and I admire and respect the **** out of it.

 

Liston was at the very least 34 against Ali. As the 1940 census has him ten years old meaning he was born in 1930. His marriage certificate on the other hand lists his birthyear as 1928. Some think he was even older. Even if not, 32-34 is rather old for a professional fighter still fighting at a world class level, especially in Liston's day and age, without modern medicine and nutrition to help combat aging. He also had burstitis and a recorded injury and asked for a postponement of the bout because of said injury and was subsequently denied.

"A team of eight doctors inspected Liston's arm at St. Francis Hospital in Miami Beach and agreed that it was too badly damaged for Liston to continue fighting. The torn tendon had bled down into the mass of the biceps, swelling and numbing the arm." Those findings were confirmed in a formal investigation immediately after the fight by Florida State Attorney Richard Gerstein, who also noted that there was little doubt that Liston went into the fight with a sore or lame shoulder. Despite Liston carrying an injury and being undertrained, Ali stated in 1975 that the first fight with Liston was the toughest of his career"
This should throw out this extreme (and that's being generous) theory of yours that Liston got a number of doctors to lie about his injury on his behalf. Unless you think the State was somehow involved in a conspiracy (which I wouldn't put past you)."

MIAMI BEACH, Wednesday, Feb. 26—A team of eight physicians said in a statement issued early this morning that the defeated heavyweight champion, Sonny Liston, had suffered an arm injury that would have prevented him from defending himself in his title fight with Cassius Clay.

Liston's purse had been held up pending the medical findings. The physicians' statement said a recommendation would be made that the purse be released.

Dr. Alexander Robbins, chief physician of the Miami Beach Boxing Commission, read the statement at St. Francis Hospital after Liston had been with the doctors in an X‐ray room for 3½ hours.

The statement read:

“We came to the conclusion that Sonny Liston suffered an injury to the long head to the biceps tendon of the left shoulder, with the result there is separation and tear of muscle fibers with some hemorrhage into the muscle belly. This condition would be sufficient to incapacitate him and prevent him from defending himself.”

So no it wasn't an excuse. Multuple well respected doctors, physicians, among others have attested to his debilitating injury.

 

Age by itself is not an excuse, but some fighters are not at his best after 30, while others keep the beat until 40. You can't use the same criteria for all fighters (or sportsmen in general).

 

And nobody will believe this nonsense. Not even close. Ali also said that earnie Shavers was stronger than Foreman and Frazier.

 

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion,but good luck with finding anyone who agrees with it.
BTW I don't have to live with it, it's rather irrelevant to me.

 

Really? Well that explains a lot!

 

Reach, jab, power, defense, outside ability, all-around game, adaptability, boxing skills, ring IQ. Nothing?

 

One again, what elite SHW did Liston beat to prove he'd be better from the outside? Waiting on an answer.

And once again , Liston beat Cat Williams in close , not from range.

 

I will watch the round. Isn't that the round where he lands some good body shots? But I meant throughout the whole fight Liston was unaggressive FOR THE MOST PART.

 

What elite SHW heavyweight did Bowe ever beat period!

 

I just watched Round 11. Liston landed a few solid shots here and there, and maybe I'm remembering it wrong in context of the entire fight, but Liston didn't look especially aggressive to me. He did knock Machen down from a low blow. Before that, Machen had landed the hardest blow of the round, which was a big left on a break. After Machen recovered from the low blow, the two did trade furiously at ring center for a few moments before the bell rang, but I thought Machen got the better of that exchange. As I recall the fight, Liston found out after 5 or 6 rounds that he couldn't knock Machen out, and just started jabbing. I do recall a round later in the fight where Liston got aggressive with Machen, but I don't think this is the one.

 

Bowe isn't being matched against an elite SHW here , Liston is.

The notion Liston can beat a guy like Bowe from the outside isn't backed up by any evidence.

Ive seen more guys pick Joe Louis to beat Liston in a recent thread so that tells me Liston being a classic era boxer grants him favouritism over the modern era boxer.

Liston imo would give Louis more hell then he would give Bowe because they were around the same size.

Bowe's size advantage over Liston is going to make the difference.

 

Well that's your opinion, D.I don't see why the guy with the longer reach and the better jab can't do it myself.

 

What makes Riddick an elite SHW? His resume aside from Holyfield is pretty poor and he got absolutely thrashed by Andrew Golota dead in his prime despite persistent attempts to downplay both fights.

Also, I think the size angle is being overplayed. A lot of Bowe's weight seems to have been excess flab.