Sonny Liston vs Riddick Bowe

Prime Bowe not the wore out one who fought Golota right?

I have have never seen a 6'5" big man like Bowe infight like he did....Bowe beats Liston the difference is size, strength and Bowes extraordinary ability

 

Good match up. Cases can be made for both sides.
Bowe: naturally much bigger. Taller and heavier. Plus big heart.
Liston: Fought better competition and possessed bigger punch.
Both skilled.

I find Bowe overrated for the 90s because he just missed/avoided too many good fighters in a good decade.
But he was skilled and he liked to trade.

Liston will always have questions about his heart because of the way he went out in both Ali fights. But no one knows his age in those fights and he cleaned out a decent if not great division for several years while blackballed from title shot.

To me it comes down to if Bowe can take Sonny’s punch. Bowe was easy to hit, Coetzer wobbled him, Evander put him down and we know what Golota did. None of those guys were Liston in his prime.

However Liston the intimidator looked small when he came up vs Ali. Was hurt in first fight and was on his way I believe to being stopped in first fight and then quit at trouble when dropped in rematch. How would he look facing a man both taller and slightly bigger puncher than Ali. He wouldn’t have to chase Bowe.

So I see great fight. Two guys slugging it out and Bowe comes up short. But no outcome would really surprise me here

 

What? What´s wrong with this "he dominated the divsion" thing that always comes up? The best men he beat are 190lb Patterson and Williams, who are according to a duel thread here in BF24 are on the same level!

Bowe is propably the ony man in history to beat a prime ATG TWICE among others. What about Liston? Machen, Folley and Harris? He fought 1 beltholder, Patterson .....

 

Liston defeated:
Patterson 2x (both first round)
Zora Folley
Eddie Machen
Nino Valdez
Cleveland Williams (2x)

Bowe has the best win in Holyfield. But many ppl felt Holyfield was a blown up Cruiser when they fought.

Bowe:

Holyfield (2x) with one Loss
Herbie Hide
Larry Donald

Golota?? Can you call those wins?

Bowe never fought - Tyson, Lewis, Foreman, Moorer, Tucker, Mercer, Sanders, McCall, Holmes, Morrison, and others.

Liston didn’t miss nearly as many viable contenders in his era as Bowe did.

Also Bowe didn’t beat a prime ATG twice. Holyfield who was erratic at times at heavyweight to issues he claimed were anything from heart ailments, to shoulder woes - struggled mightily in the 3rd bout unable to pull the trigger when Bowe was out on his feet. George Foreman who called that fight was saying on air he thought Holyfield was having a heart attack if memory serves at very least he felt something was wrong with Holyfield. Who followed that up with an abysmal showing against Bobby Czyz.

Bowe’s best case to win for me is the size differential.
Like my previous post states I think this is a competitive matchup but I stand by my opinion that Liston fought the better overall competition.

 

Patterson, Machen and Folley didn´t even make heavyweights! Valdez had more losses in his resume than he had wins in only 20 bouts! Leaving Williams. Its a joke. Really. No critics too you, but there is absolutely no justification to expand the Liston hype train from his H2H qualities (which could be good, you just don´t know) to his razor thin resume also!

Bowe beat: Holyfield 2x, first man to stop prime 26-0 Herbie Hide, Seldon, Donald, midaged Tubbs and Dokes, Thomas was shot. Then Biggs, Cooper, Mathis and undefeated 6´7" giant Gonzales. He fought beld holders in 8 occasions, but not all of them were sharp.

 

I judge the guys by the division they fought in at the time of their fights. I do realize many posters today view many of yester year’s fighters as cruisers and in some cases light heavies. It is true the division has grown and the fighters from the late 70s to modern times have become increasingly bigger and would have substantial weight and height advantages from 60s fighters and earlier. If that is how you are judging it then yes Folley and Machen were basically cruisers.

As for Bowe. The guys you list really are not much outside of Holyfield. Seldon folded against quality punching heavies look at his Tyson fight for further proof. Dokes was out of shape, shot and drug addicted. Mathis couldn’t crack an egg and deserved a DQ win for being hit while down. Gonzalez was the biggest stiff hype job in years he stunk. Clueless Cuban one headline read after that fight.
Donald and Hide are solid wins. Tubbs arguably beat Bowe I scored it a draw. The announcers basically just gave the talking points that fight and gave the false impression Bowe dominated. I think Dan Deirdorf I could be mistaken called that fight lol.
Bowe’s resume is light. For fighting in the 90s no way around that.
Liston beat mostly men that wouldn’t be classified as heavies today that is true. But he did beat Williams and Valdes to legit heavies by modern standards.

 

True, both did not have a deep resume. But comparing both, there is no way I can rate Liston higher than Bowe. Only thing here as you said, Bowe could have fought more, Liston could fought Ingo, Terell or Cooper instead of tomatos.

Beating Holyfield twice for me is much higher than Patterson twice. You can say Liston did indeed better when beating him. Bowe beat four solid heavyweight champs, Donald, Seldon, Hide (who looked superb back then) and Tubbs. Machen, Williams x2, and Folley against them? They picked up more losses, didn´t make it past a contender. H2H? Let all of them fight, I see the 90s beating these guys in like 80% overall minimum.
The other guys Liston fought? Valdez resume is worse than Fergusons. The same for Harris. No Biggs, Cooper, Mathis, Coetzer or 23-0 Gonzales on Listons resume anywhere.

 

Bowe would be the bigger man, but I don't know about the stronger man. Liston was a powerfully built 210+ pounder.

 

I'd say that Bowe was more than a "slightly bigger puncher" than Ali. I'd say the difference was significant enough.

 

To be fair, prime Liston likely could've beaten all of Bowe's competition, including a controversial decision over Tubbs. Holyfield would be up in the air, however. Bowe could've beaten all of Liston's competition, but Ali would be up in the air.

 

To be fair, beating a prime and near prime Holyfield is a very big deal. Though Holyfield is just 1 opponent, prime time Holyfield would be a tough fight for anyone, even at 6'2 205 pounds. Can you see Wilder, AJ, Parker or Ortiz just plowing through this "blown up cruiser"? I can't. On the other hand, Bowe did eek out the win due primarily to him being the bigger man rather than the more skillful man.

 

I don't know. Machen, Williams and Folley may do well against Donald, Seldon, Hide and Tubbs. At least, it probably wouldn't be complete blowouts. In fact, I'd say Machen vs Tubbs may be the most competitive.

 

Lovely counter.

 

You couldn't even get the year of the fight correct. That sums up your intelligence, and the value of your post by extension.

 

Year of what fight? 63 was just a random year when he was still champ. Could it be you're jealous because the forums resident comedian liked my reply?