Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano - Who wins?

Did Tyson hit harder as he got older and heavier? Did Foreman? Did Joe Louis? I think they were knocking people flat from day one ...and so was Williams.

Williams was already a knock out puncher when he met Simmons. Keene Simmons is best placed to say who hit harder. He said Rocky did.

 

Marciano last fight was in 1955, he officially retired in 1956.

At the end of 1955 Liston was 13-1 (7). He had two very close fights with Johnny Summerlin W8 and WSD8. Liston suffered a broken jaw and dropped a decision to the 180 Lb. Marty Marshall, LSD8. Liston did beat Marshall in their 2nd fight, KO6. They fought a 3rd time in 1956, Liston W10. Marshall was filling in for the injured Harold Johnson in 1956. Liston was not seen as a serious threat to the HW title at this point.

Liston did not fight in 1957 but in 1958 he stayed busy (more than 2 years after Marciano retired). In 1958 he went 8-0 (6). He beat Bert Whitehurst twice, W10 x2. Whitehurst was 24-13-2 prior to their first fight. He beat Wayne Bethea and Frankie Daniels who combined for 23 losses and 4 draws when they met Liston. Liston stopped them both in the 1st round. He also beat Ernie Cab KO8 in 1958.

In 1959 he beat Mike DeJohn KO6 and Cleveland Williams KO3. Williams had already been stopped in the 3rd round by Bob Satterfield, struggled with Frankie Daniels twice, and was dropped in a few other fights. He also beat Nino Valdes KO3 and Willi Besmanoff KO7 in 1959, they combined for 34 losses and 10 draws when they met Liston.

In 1960 he beat Howard King KO8 (King had won just 35 of his previous 62 fights), Cleveland Williams again (KO2), Roy Harris KO1, Zora Folley KO3 (good fighter but not the most durable), and Eddie Machen W12 (pretty much on par with Folley but more durable). Machen gave Liston a good fight. The wins over Folley and Machen were big. Marciano had not fought for over 5 years at this point.

Long story short... people need to quit thinking that Marciano was afraid of Liston.

 

the relevance is that once Williams moved up and started fighting a better class of fighters he could only get decisions over guys that were being KO'd at the same time.

Williams was 27-0 when he was beaten by Sylvester Jones 7-3, Jones dropped him 2X, He was 31-1 when he was KO'd in 3 by Bob Satterfield and dropped 2X, He then was KO'd by Liston in 2 fights dropped 2X in each. His big wins were Frankie Daniels W 10, W 10, Frankie D was stopped by Bob Murphy,Loyd Marshall,**** Finley X2, Bob Satterfield,Joe Dorsey, Sonny Liston in 1, He had another win over Billy Daniels W10 but Daniels was KO3 5 months later by Karl Mildenburger and KO 1 by Oscar Bonavena and others after.

Other than stopping Ernie Terrell (who beat him in a rematch, Big Cat did not show KO power or ability to KO nor did he show a solid chin.

I think Big Cat is over rated as a puncher and may have been a bit chinny

 

Keene Simmons was the only man to fight both men (someone posted the article last time this was discussed) Simmons said Rocky hit much harder than BIG CAT, Simmons was stopped by Rocky but went the distance with Big Cat about a year or 2 later

 

Styles would seem to favour Liston, but is it really that clear cut? The fact is that we don't know how Marciano would fare against a big strong slugger, history tells us that sluggers usually beats swarmers but there are examples of the reverse. Dempsey and Tyson feasted on big and strong sluggers. Marciano was an exceptional fighter, it is not at all a sure fact that he would be troubled by great sluggers, it is just an unkown quantity.

Still, if they fought tomorrow I'll have to admit that my money would be on Liston.

 

There's Willi Besmanoff.
There's also Wayne Bethea who not only has never been knocked out prior to fighting Liston, He's NEVER been ko'd by anybody AFTER fighting Liston. Liston was the only man to stop him. And he did it in 1 round.
Billy Hunter was never knocked out prior to fighting Liston.
Also Emil Brtko was never knocked out prior to fighting Liston.
Martin Lee was also only stopped one time, and it was also by Sonny boy.
Those are FIVE fighters who were never knocked out prior to fighting Liston. Two of those were ONLY knocked out by Liston. :hi:

 

Cleveland Williams was nothing special to be honest. He was tall, had a long reach, good physique, strong, good power... that only gets you so far.

Williams was not a great technical boxer, he was not durable, he was not hard to hit, he didn't utilize his height and reach well, he was not a good finisher, he wasn't hard to counter, and his stamina was nothing special... beating him was no great feat.

He stopped Ernie Terrell (KO7) but lost to Terrell in a rematch (LSD10) after Terrell had improved. He also drew with Eddie Machen. There's really nothing else worth bragging about.

Liston's wins over Folley, Machen, and Patterson x2 are what's important. They were all good boxers but not the biggest or most durable HWs ever. Machen was the most durable of the 3 and that's why he went 12 rounds with Liston, he even gave Liston some problems. Johansson did stop Machen in the 1st round though. It took Joe Frazier more than 9 rounds to stop a well past prime Eddie Machen in 1966. End results? Liston KO1 Patterson x2, Liston KO3 Folley, and Liston W12 Machen.

Machen had a draw with Zora Folley and lost a clear decision to Folley over 12rounds before he faced Liston. After Liston he lost decisions to Harold Johnson, Floyd Patterson, and Ernie Terrell.

Folley also lost a decision to Terrell and was stopped by Doug Jones LKOby7 and Muhammad Ali LKOby7 among others.

 

If Keene Simmons thought that Marciano hit him harder than Williams then that is interesting, because Williams power has been favourably compared to a lot of big hitters who came after him.

I would not personally read a lot into it however, unless some other common opponents corroborated the opinion.

 

You don't believe you develop ring -smarts as you gain experience?

 

Archie Moore said Yvonn Durelle hit him harder than Marciano.What does it really mean?
I think anyone who categorically states that Marciano hit harder than Williams has an agenda,and as such is to be judged accordingly.

 

What clear proof do we have by results in the professional boxing ring that Williams was a elite puncher?

We have numerous Marciano opponents that said Marciano hurt you when he tapped you and KO's over guys that were durable IMO, Layne,Walcott,Charles,Louis,etc.

The one common opponent was Keene Simmons and by way of results Marciano KO and Williams W10 Marciano was the man with the results.

It can be said that Marciano never faced a puncher like Liston but it can also be said that Sonny Liston never met a puncher like Marciano unless we want to elevate Williams that honor based on sparring stories. Even if we did give Williams the puncher props, the question would be how durable was he, he was stopped and dropped often.

Liston was young when dropped by Marty Marshall and prime when Ali KO'd him and old when Leotis Martin flattened and KO'd him but none of those guys were punchers in the class of Marciano so without us labeling Williams a puncher, Sonny becomes untested against an elite banger.

 

What was Keene Simmons agenda when he said Rocky hit him harder than Williams? Simmons lost both fights!

What was Archie Moore's agenda when he said Durelle hit him harder than Rocky?