Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

Love this.

 

Yeah so what? The point you were going for here would have been made if you said "Multiple people quit through injuries much less than these".

Does it suck? Absolutely. Does it require a tremendous amount of courage? Absolutely not. I'd say jumping on a grenade to protect fellow soldiers and Marines requires a tremendous amount of courage. Not being paid a bunch of money to beat someone up...

It's a broken nose man. Like I said it's a bit uncomfortable but in the heat of a fight and only having fought with it for less than 6 minutes it's not much of a test. Especially when he quit after claiming his shoulder was bothering him.

 

If size was so intimidating for your friend then he must not have known about Rocky's wins over Shkor and Wilson.

 

He was the Hw champ...couldn’t have been that gone lol

 

That's what I meant. My apologies.

So because Liston didn't jump on a grenade he's a no-heart coward?

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Here's an expert comparing him to Tyson "During his career, Tyson folded in a number of different circumstances, including incidences when he was being overpowered. Liston, on the other hand, usually only had trouble (and only gave in against Ali) when he was fighting men with styles confusing to him. In brawn to brawn confrontations he was always a man’s man. He flattened powerful Cleveland Williams after Williams had broken his nose at the start of one of their bouts. Zora Folley hit him 30 straight shots against the ropes – and then Sonny steamrolled him. Sonny also went through one of his three fights with Marty Marshall with a broken jaw. I don’t think Mike would fare that well in these situations. That’s the difference between the two"

You're intentionally downplaying the severity of the situation to make it look like it was not as bad as it was. Disingenuous imo. Liston was known to have a shoulder injury going INTO the bout, diagnosed with bursitis, and 8 doctors testified to the fact that he wouldn't be able to move his shoulder after the 6th round, impairing his ability to defend himself. He was also at least 34, (more likely closer to his 40s). What was Marciano doing at this age?

 

This means absolutely nothing. Ali was the champ going into his bout with Spinks was he not "that gone"?

 

Don't be so dramatic.

Not sure where you're going with the Tyson comparison but I assure you the opposition that Tyson faced was much much better than Liston's. Liston doesn't hold a candle to Tyson in that regard.

Funny, his right arm looks fine in the last round. You should also mention that on the same wikipedia subsection it goes on to say that one of Liston's cornermen confessed that they made that up on the spot. That makes sense and it wouldn't be very hard for a mob controlled fighter to get a team of doctors to say he messed up his shoulder. Should also raise red flags that a team of 8 doctors was needed to treat one arm...

 

That's not my argument. I'm saying (well technically the expert I'm quoting) was more battletested and fought through more adversity than Tyson.

"A team of eight doctors inspected Liston's arm at St. Francis Hospital in Miami Beach and agreed that it was too badly damaged for Liston to continue fighting. The torn tendon had bled down into the mass of the biceps, swelling and numbing the arm." Those findings were confirmed in a formal investigation immediately after the fight by Florida State Attorney Richard Gerstein, who also noted that there was little doubt that Liston went into the fight with a sore or lame shoulder. Despite Liston carrying an injury and being undertrained, Ali stated in 1975 that the first fight with Liston was the toughest of his career"
This should throw out this extreme (and that's being generous) theory of yours that Liston got a number of doctors to lie about his injury on his behalf. Unless you think the State was somehow involved in a conspiracy (which I wouldn't put past you).

 

Apples and Oranges. Tyson fought plenty of atg's both prime and not prime. Plenty of big heavy punchers that he absolutely annihilated. His fights with Ruddock were much tougher than both of Liston's fights with Williams and he won just fine.

It's not that deep honestly. The mob just pays some doctors to say something about his shoulder. It doesn't matter if the state was in on it or not which they weren't. Like I said, 8 doctors for a messed up shoulder? That's ridiculous. You should use some common sense and see through the bs. Especially when Liston's own cornerman says they completely made it up. The film of the fight even supports that Liston's shoulder looks fine. He honestly looks frustrated against Ali and ready to throw in the towel because he was getting nowhere.

 

Such as?

So Tyson gets credit for beating Ruddock but and beating punchers, but Liston beating big punchers in their own right (Williams, Valdez, Dejohn) means nothing. That's ridiculous. Both Liston and Tyson overcame adversity in beating Williams' and Ruddock respectively.

Sorry I don't believe in conspiracies.

The film of the fight even supports that Liston's shoulder looks fine. He honestly looks frustrated against Ali and ready to throw in the towel because he was getting nowhere.[/QUOTE]
"
MIAMI BEACH, Wednesday, Feb. 26—A team of eight physicians said in a statement issued early this morning that the defeated heavyweight champion, Sonny Liston, had suffered an arm injury that would have prevented him from defending himself in his title fight with Cassius Clay.

Liston's purse had been held up pending the medical findings. The physicians' statement said a recommendation would be made that the purse be released.

Dr. Alexander Robbins, chief physician of the Miami Beach Boxing Commission, read the statement at St. Francis Hospital after Liston had been with the doctors in an X‐ray room for 3½ hours.

The statement read:

“We came to the conclusion that Sonny Liston suffered an injury to the long head to the biceps tendon of the left shoulder, with the result there is separation and tear of muscle fibers with some hemorrhage into the muscle belly. This condition would be sufficient to incapacitate him and prevent him from defending himself.”



Dr. Robbins said no further examination by commission doctors was necessary and that would recommend to the commmission that Liston's purse be released.

I must say your denial that even a minor issue was apparent is extreme to say the least.

 

"
The Miami Beach Boxing Commission announced tonight it was completely satisfied that Sonny Liston had suffered an “honest injury” in losing his heavyweight championship to Cassius Clay last night.

The commission chairman, Morris Klein, said that the fight promoters, William MacDonald and Chris Dundee, had been instructed to release Liston's purse. The purse had been held up after the fight pending a report by medical examiners on the shoulder injury that caused Liston to surrender in his corner after the sixth round.

“We are satisfied that there was no wrongdoing,” Klein said, “and there is no further reason to hold un the purse.”

He said the medical reports and X‐rays would be turned over tomorrow to State Attorney Richard Gerstein, who has asked a complete report on the medical examinations.

One doctor displayed a blown up photo of Liston's arm and shoulder. The doctor said there was a swelling that increased the circumference of the upper arm by 31/3 inches.

Gerstein said he had no complaints and no evidence that the fight was not completely regular, but said he wanted to have the reports studied by official doctors to determine if there was any basis for action bv his office.

The eight doctors who examined Liston were all satisfied with his story, Klein said, that he threw a left hook in the first round, heard something snap, and then lost control of his arm."
I bet the x-ray was doctored to huh?

 

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No doubt Patterson was awkward for him too under this sort of measure. Christ.

 

Just scrolled thru the thread, so much rubbish.

 

Are you really comparing the two? Eye test clearly passed for Walcott being in top shape. Prime? No but wasn’t washed up or anything.