Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

Yeah that part confused me as well. Frazier was better in perhaps every area, except the right hand.

 

I look at the complete, effective package, not the components. Frazier's right was very effective to the body and as an uppercut. Check out his demolition of Mathis. In the end, Frazier was just a more overwhelming force who beat better fighters.

 

Rocky was not another Frazier. That’s no disrespect to Joe. That’s saying don’t put past prime results of Frazier onto Marciano when Marciano is a two eyed, two handed champion who is less susceptible to long range blows.

prime Frazier beats Liston anyway.

 

I'm interested in why you think that, how do you see Joe winning?

 

Too many are hung up on the Kingston version of Frazier.

Frazier beat better fighters than Sonny Liston beat. He proved to be tougher. in his prime, Frazier could time a fighter as fast as Ali at range. His punch output would hinder Liston.

Whilst he’s still easier to hit at long range than Marciano was, Prime for prime Frazier is still going to hit Sonny before Sonny hits him. Frazier proved this when he could counter Ali’s long jabs. So He’s beating Sonny to the draw inside and probably even at range.

If you put up Ali, Quarry Ellis and Bonavena against the best that Sonny beat who wins?

 

This. Rocky was actually most effective against taller longer fighters. It was the shorter more experienced guys that gave Marciano the most trouble. Fighting Marciano with longer punches was very risky, since it didn't take much to get clipped with Marciano, who was very good at beating taller fighters to the punch.

I also agree that as good as Joe Frazier was he wasn't as complete a fighter as Marciano. Marciano had better ring experience, better adaptability under fire, better combinations, and was better at defending himself, since Marciano didn't take as many punches flush like Frazier did.

Here is a piece with Walcott explaining how Archie Moore should fight Rocky and why using long punches against Rocky is risky.

Next Tuesday night Rocky Marciano and Archie Moore are scheduled to fight here for a title I once held - the heavyweight championship of the world. I think Moore is going to win it.

I make that prediction with only one "if." Archie will win if he's in perfect condition, ready to do something that will squeeze every last once of energy from his body. Let me explain:

In fighting Marciano, or watching him on fight television, always remember that he can't throw a fully effective straight punch. Why? Because Rocky has very short arms, and has to swing roundhouses to knock you out. The best defense against him, therefore, is to keep boring inside, away from the arch of those powerful roundhouses.

That kind of a defense, however, calls for a perfectly conditioned body - a stiff order for a guy like Archie Moore, who's been boxing over 20 years and confesses to being 38. Moreover, whether he's in condition or not is something that Moore doesn't know now, won't know till he's tagged by the first Marciano punch. At his age, your training can't tell you whether or not you're in condition. Only the fight can tell you that.

I learned this from sad experience. In my second fight with Marciano, I was over the hill and didn't know it. Only when I was hit in that first - and last - round could I tell that something was wrong. I had been hit with harder punches, but this one made me lose consciousness from the referee's count of "three" to "seven." And when I wanted to get up at seven, I couldn't and was counted out.

If this unsuspected weakness hasn't crept up on Moore, if his body is ready to do everything he demands of it Tuesday night, then the rest of Archie's problems are minor by comparison. But they're important, and if I were Archie, here's how I would handle them.

First, in fighting close to Marciano you've got to keep from being butted. I don't mean that Rocky is an intentionally dirty fighter, because he isn't. I've gotten to know the Rocky very well outside the ring and he's one of the finest gentleman I've ever had the good fortune to meet.

But inside the ring, look out. Rocky is a wild fury, with no control over his elbows or head. And if he should accidentally butt Moore, it can set Archie up for a knockout.

That's what happened to me in my first battle with Rocky. In the 12th round of a fight in which Rocky had never been able to catch up with me, a butt cut me above my left eye. The blood trickled down, obscuring my vision. Early in the next round he fired a right - a punch I'd been dodging easily. But this time I couldn't see it coming and the fight was over.

Moore's fight will be over too if he moves from side to side while boring in on Rocky. If you're watching the fight on TV, keep your eyes peeled for this, for a Marciano roundhouse will almost certainly clip him. To keep from being hit, Moore must stay glued to the center of Rocky's body.

On the offense Moore has a huge advantage, despite the fact that Rocky can put out the lights with one punch. For as long as Archie's in-fighting defense keeps him protected from that dynamite Rocky throws, Moore has everything in his favor.

Here's why:

Marciano's wickedest punches come at you from above. Moore, however, has an odd style - he fights low to the ground. (I'm demonstrating this in the picture at right.) Marciano's overhand punches, therefore, will be landing without damage on Archie's back. And Archie, by sticking close, can prevent Rocky from sliding under him for uppercuts.

Moore, in the meantime, will be making good use of his long arms and tremendous punching power. I expect to see a fight in which Moore will belt Rocky almost at will, for Marciano is a sucker for almost every kind of punch there is.

Now Rocky, of course, can take it. In my 23 years of fighting I've never landed a harder punch than the left hook that dropped him in the first round of our fight in Philadelphia (unless it was the blow that knocked out Ezzard Charles for the title). That left landed high on Rocky's face and sent him sprawling. Yet he got right back up. Again in the 11th I jack-knifed him with a left to the stomach. I still don't know how he stood up to it. He's a wonder in taking punishment.

But that was three years ago. I doubt whether Rocky can take those punches today, for his face now cuts very easily, especially around the nose. And though heavyweight championship fights rarely end in TKOs, this one might. But even if the fight isn't stopped, a bleeding face is a heavy millstone for any fighter to carry, since it forces him into a shell to prevent any more damage. And Marciano is licked any time he has to fight a defensive battle; his only weapon is his slugging ability.

If I were Archie, there's one other trick that I would use against Rocky - a trick that wasn't so easy for me since I was a stand-up fighter but a natural for low-to-the-ground Archie. It's this:

When Archie starts firing a barrage of punches, there's only one way to box him and that's by covering up, since he can't punch with enough accuracy to nail a jaw that's reasonably well protected. That's the trick: cover up.

If Moore doesn't protect himself properly against those flurries - or if he makes any one of a half-dozen mistakes - then I must admit that Marciano will win. But I don't think Moore will make those mistakes, for he's a hungry fighter who's waited a long time for this chance. It won't come his way again and he knows it.

I believe he'll be the winner if he's still on his feet at the en of the 15th round, for he'll have chopped Rocky to ribbons along the way.

In other words, the only way that Rocky can win this fight is by a knockout.

He won't score that KO in my opinion for Archie will be smart enough to keep inside where Rocky can't blitz him. If his body hold up to the ordeal of boring in, you'll be reading about a new heavyweight champion on Wednesday morning - Archie Moore.
https://imgur.com/MwM4zGn
https://imgur.com/9WGYJlc

 

I also don't get why people think Rocky would have the same limitations as Frazier, since Rocky and Frazier had completely different styles.

Here is a piece by Gene Ward, who was a veteran sports writer comparing Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier and he correctly points out that their styles share little similarity.

The first time I saw Rocky Marciano fight was in the Golden Gloves. He wound up the loser to Coley Wallace. The second time was three years later when, in his 12th pro fight, he bombed out Gilley Ferron in Philadelphia.

The bout lasted less than two rounds, but that was the night I first began to suspect that here was one who could turn out to be something special in heavyweights.

I resurrect my initial memories of the Brockton Blockbuster, because Joe Frazier reminds me of him. He's not as heavyy-fisted as the Rock. He can't take a punch the way the Rock could, or dish out the same bruising punishment, but he has the principal ingredient which forged Marciano's spectacular chain of victories - determiniation.

Joe Frazier is the same type of positive thinker. He concentrates on hitting the other guy as often as possible, certain in the knowledge that he is the stronger, tougher man. It is a formula which worked for Marciano and it is doing the same for Frazier.

Of average height, as was Marciano, he has the Rock's heavy thighs and sturdy underpinnings if not his shoulder and arm development. There is, however, little similarity in styles. Rocky was the methodical plodder who hurt a man wherever he hit him. Joe is faster and busier; a better defensive boxer although Marciano's offense always proved to be all the defense he needed.

Where Rocky stalked from a low and seemingly awkward crouch. Joe bobs, weaves and slips punches with a fair degree of dexterity as he generates his offense.

Where Rocky attacked with sledgehammer blows, Joe operates on the "cumulative effect" theory, although, at times, his left hook can be a sledgehammer. Technically, Frazier is a natural left hooker, whereas the hook never was much more than a supplementary weapon to Marciano although through diligent application he learned to use it half way through his career.

Al (The Vest) Weill kept his tiger wrapped in cotton batting a lot longer than the Philadelphia combine has kept Frazier. Rocky didn't meet an opponent of any consequence until he'd been a pro two years, and there was a gap of 16 months between his debut and his second fight.

It was during this period that Weill turned loose that magnificent man, Charley Goldman, to teach Marciano the rudiments of balance, leverage and body pivot. Without Goldman, who received peanuts for his talents, there would have been no Marciano.

The first fair-to-middling opposition fed Rocky was Don Mogard, over whom he won a 10-round decision in Providence. It was Rocky's 17th pro fight and the first time he'd failed to kayo one of Weill's hand-picked popovers.

Like Rocky, Joe lost an amateur tournament scrap - to Buster Mathis in the '64 Olympic trials, but he wound up making the trip to Tokyo and winning the gold medal when Buster suffered a hand injury on the eve of the team's departure from San Francisco.

By comparison to Marciano, Frazier has been rushed by his connections. At 24, with 17 winning fights to his credit, he is a year younger than Marciano was when he fought his first pro fight.

Just 13 months from the date of his pro bow, Joe was in with a ranking heavyweight, South American champion Oscar Bonavena, who knocked him down twice in the second round before Joe got himself untracked and back on the beam.


If Bonavena hadn't blown his cool that night of Sept. 21, 1966, at the Garden, Frazier's unbeaten Skein would have terminated right there. As for Rocky, he never was close to defeat until he challenged Jersey Joe Walcott for the crown in the 43d fight of his career. Walcott had him down, and for three rounds Rocky was unable to see straight, whether from the blows or from the introduction of a foreign substance into his eyes. This is still a subject for debate.

Then, with on devastating right hand, Marciano maced Walcott into oblivion. Of all the punches I've seen in my time, that has to be the most explosive.

I don't think Frazier can begin to muster that kind of power. He hasn't learned about balance, leverage and body pivot, as Marciano learned them. Neither he nor his connections have the patience of an Al Weill, and While Yancy Durham is a good trainer he is no Charley Goldman.

As I said, Frazier appears to have Marciano's driving determination and abiding ambition to sharpen the tools of his trade. Against George Chuvalo it was difficult to tell how much he improved over the Bonavena fight, because the Canadian, overweight and sluggish, had become little more than a depository for punches.

As of the moment, Ernie Terrell, with his height, reach and awkward style, probably would take Frazier, but the others in this elimination tournament wouldn't stand a chance with Joe. And a year from now, the way I figure it, Ernie would be duck soup for Frazier.
https://imgur.com/Cqvrwa7

 

This is worth quoting again. A hilarious anecdote. The tale of the tape doesn't say everything until you actually get 2 drastically different guys next to each other in person. Rocky fans will say "it's just a 6 inch height difference!" Until you look at how much more massive a bulky 6'3+ guy looks standing next to a guy who could easily compete at super middle. It's like watching a big brother set to graduate mess around with his elementary school younger brother.

With that being said, prime Liston TKO's Rocky within 3 rounds or less. "Like shooting fish in a barrel".

 

Here's the thing about Marciano....he actually defeated men that on paper, he should have lost to. Like had he never fought Walcott, everyone on this forum would talk about how a slickster like Walcott (yes even the 38 year old) would have befuddled and outclassed a crude Marciano. Same with Charles.

I admit, on paper, it looks like Liston has all the advantages, but if I had a magic genie that could make this fight happen, I don't think most here would be willing to gamble everything they own on a sure Liston victory that's easy. Sometimes, the man who holds all the advantages doesn't always win. As an aside, think of Marvis Frazier vs Bone crusher Smith. Smith, on paper, should have Foreman'd Marvis (I wish that fight was on video because I still don't know how Smith lost that one). Marvis was a lot smaller, was a come forward fighter like his dad and was susceptible to power punches. In fact, Larry Holmes, a solid HW puncher but no ATG puncher, had him down with a single right hand. Smith was inferior to Holmes as a fighter, but superior as a sheer puncher and held all the advantages over Marvis but still lost.

Now I know Liston is better than Smith but Marciano was better than Marvis and I was just trying to illustrate a point.

And, as far as I'm aware, back in the late 50s and early 60s when Liston was in his prime, I don't think the consensus was that Liston would have steam rolled a prime Rocky and their eras overlapped. So Marciano was still in very recent memory during the time of Liston.

 

I get that Marciano is beloved if not outright revered. IMO it’s because he was an “Everyman” who didn’t look like a heavyweight champion, but he had unparalleled determination and he was tougher than teak with a layer of diamonds over it and more skilled than he’s given credit for.

I greatly respect his accomplishments, I have him seventh on my personal top heavyweights list. He beat everyone who was put in front of him, I refuse to play the game of “if he’d been in X era he wouldn’t have been unbeaten.” He was unbeaten in the era in which he competed, mic drop.

He also was a tremendously flawed human being with many demons, although that is irrelevant given who he’s matched against in this comparison LOL.

That being said, the laws of physics if not sheer reality cannot be escaped here. Sonny Liston at his peak is an utterly atrocious, IMO unwinnable unless he took a tire iron or a blackjack into the ring matchup for him. And the older Marciano, or if he’d come out of retirement at 34, 35, 36 to face Sonny, might have gotten hurt real bad.

 

So what I gathered from this, according to Walcott, Marciano:

Pros:

-Was tough as hell
-Hit hard
-Could be very rough with headbutts and elbows whether intentional or unintentional.
-His best punches come at you from above.

Cons:

-Has to throw wide roundhouse blows to get a KO.
-Could actually struggle on the inside against a skilled fighter.
-could only slug and was poor on defense.
-Could be suckered into falling for any punch.
-Cut very easily.


In regards to a fight with Liston, the big bear hit even harder, taking away Rocky's best asset. The second Rocky got rough with him, Liston would be more than happy to use some of his own roughhouse tactics. Rocky would not be able to deliver punches from above as Liston was taller and fought relatively upright in a traditional orthodox stance behind a long ramrod jab. That leaves toughness and stamina as the only advantages Rocky had over Liston (and Liston finished some fights with a broken nose, jaw, etc and had decent stamina for a big puncher so even those advantages aren't huge x factors).

As for the cons, well, Rocky is going to have a hard time landing wide roundhouse blows on a larger opponent who can see them coming and times him with his exceptionally long jab, framing, etc. If Rocky made it an inside fight, he'd be in even more trouble as Liston was as strong as an ox and had devastating short punches such as the hook, body shots, and uppercuts. Liston wouldn't be trying to sucker Rocky into anything, so Rocky doesn't have to worry about subtle traps or counters, but he'd wish that's what was to expect when the first bomb lands. Finally, we have Rocky's propensity for cuts. I cannot imagine how horrific Rocky would look if Liston managed to open one up and managed to hurt Rocky, he'd be all over him landing blows like rain.

Liston had weaknesses, but there isn't a single one he has that Rocky would be able to exploit. On the other hand, according to Walcott, Rocky had nearly half a dozen weaknesses Liston could zero in on for victory.

 

Peak Sonny Liston also was a much, much, MUCH more skilled boxer than he was given credit for. He wasn’t all about clubbing power shots.

Bottom line Rocky’s MO was he’d take three shots out of sheer toughness and grit and guts to land a bomb of his own. You trade three for one with peak Sonny Liston, you are in a heap of trouble.

 

Correct. That's something overlooked in some of these threads. Liston wasn't just a big slugger, he could be a technically sound boxer-puncher too with subtle skills. He also has underrated defense.

Nobody is going to make it far taking 3 of Liston's shots to land 1 of their own. Rocky might get stopped in the 1st round with such a game plan. It only worked against feather fisted technicians and older, shopworn fighters who didn't have the energy and strength to keep Rocky from suffocating them with his relentless pressure. He never faced a prime, durable big hitter (and no, Rex ****ing Layne doesn't count).

 

You know a fighter has no chance, when someone's best argument for them is "upsets have happened before.".

 

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that all of Rocky's victories came against guys he had all the disadvantages against. Rocky was one of those guys who could beat guys he shouldn't have. I just find it interesting that none of the boxing writers and afficianados of the late 50s or early 60s picked Liston to wipe out Marciano easy. Personally, I wouldn't count on an easy Liston victory. I would have to see it to believe it.