Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

How the hell did you go from talking about Liston vs Rocky, to talking about Tyson, to talking about Ali? You're all over the place and bringing up 7 different topics.

 

Good think you weren't doing the ratings.

You realize just because YOU don't have him in your top ten doesn't change the fact he was rated right?

Even by your laughable standards, Richardson would still be top 15, which is still world-class.

 

I brought up the uppercuts and pushing because for some reason you think all Rocky has to do is get past the jab and the fight is his. You aren't making some astounding observation that an uppercut is a short range and not a long range punch. The point being, Liston was good at multiple range and would beat Rocky's ass even if he did get close.

Since people keep bringing him up for some reason, Mike Tyson said something to the effect of "even if I got past the jab, I'd only have to now deal with the full power of Liston".

 

Exactly, they can bulk up if necessary adjust to whatever the most ideal is for the HW division. Guys like Wilder and Usyk are viable in any era because they can pack on more muscle or lose weight and still be functional and elite. So I agree with you to an extent that inflation can be a thing, but I doubt we'll ever have a HW era where you absolutely "must" be 230+ or you'll lose for sure. If that happens, they'll probably just make super heavyweight.

 

Like I said, one of several factors.

And we all know how fat guys like Kownacki and Miller are able to throw an absurd number of punches well into the 12th

 

I agree with this. Sonny was good at multiple range. an excellent fighter. He can fight close. He can fight long. And he is very very strong. I’m simply saying Marciano fooled a lot of good fighters because, until they fought him, it looked like they could operate at multiple range against him. Turned out he forced all of them to fight the wrong fight.

That’s your opinion to think so. Nothing “would” about it.

 

>checks this website for the first time in about half a year
>this is the top thread with over 400 replies

war, war never changes.

 

That's an entirely separate discussion. I wasn't claiming to know for sure how good a bulked up Ali or Patterson were, nor was I saying we shouldn't take boxers as they were in H2H discussios. I was just pointing out that even in today's era of body builders and behemoths over 230+, you still have smaller classic sized heavies who can comfortably move up and down in weigh as needed and even win titles.

I think for some boxers today, they simply lack the discipline to get in shape and say "screw it" because they know they can take the supplements to have the cardio to go 12 rounds while still being fat. Chimp see, chimp do. Once a lot of people got lazy, everyone got lazy. And the current rules favor the bigger guy on average.

 

There would be no wrong fight for Liston. Whether he boxes at long range or slugs at close range, he'll have many advantages over Rocky.

 

Classic sized is from Louis to Tyson. Roughly 205-215+. The vast majority of heavies in the lineal championship have been that size. No bulking involved, they just naturally fell within that range because they weren't lifting weights or taking a bunch of supplement (that we know of). That's 50+ years of consistency until the 90's when things started to drastically shift. Even before Louis you had champions such as Jefferies and Johnson who frequently weighed within that range.

I only call some of them lazy because of their physique. An athlete in his prime shouldn't have a triple chin, flabs, saggy chest, etc.

 

Tunney was a 1 off champion who barely stuck around similar to Spinx. Sullivan has multiple fights where he weighs over 200. Patterson, Dempsey, and Rocky were considered small even for their own eras.

The champion is by definition the most successful guy of his era. We were discussing what was considered classic sized and what was considered the most ideal for different eras. There are more examples proving my point amongst champions than exceptions for that weight range.

Sullivan, Jeff, Johnson, Louis, Liston, Frazier, Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson (10)

Vs

Dempsey, Patterson, Tunney, Marciano, Sharky (5).

As I said, the exceptions were considered small even back then and critics wrote off some of them with low expectations. 205-215+ give or take is classic sized for nearly a century for champions. Obviously the size of the average contender goes up slightly over time, but it wasn't drastic until the 90's.

 

I think I made the connection clear. And I only brought up Tyson because someone mentioned my Tyson vs Liston thread that I made years ago.

 

I don't think it's a "religion" to have a genuine opinion that Rocky would be competitive with Liston, even if he lost. Why is anything other than "Liston easily slaughters Rocky" a religion? Ali said it himself that he thought that Rocky on his best day would be a tough fight for him. Did Ali have a "religion"?

If my opinion is "Roy Jones would massacre Jim Jefferies" (which is my real opinion) is that also a religion?

 

I know we're in 2023. My point that men over 200 within that range seem to be a sort of sweet spot for the division still stands. You didn't really debunk anything. Even in the classic era, weighing 186 like Rocky wasn't considered ideal. That was the original conversation we were having. You had asked why having a weight advantage matters less over 200. And I said there's many variables to consider, and exceptions, but generally speaking if a guy is elite skilled and in shape he can compete in most eras at that range.

 

Nobody said that. Obviously saying Rocky beating Liston doesn't make someone a religious fanatic. Favoring Rocky to win in virtually every h2h discussion borders on fanaticism however. Especially when the arguments boil down to "Rocky will find a way" and rely heavily on intangibles such a as "heart" and "toughness" while downplaying very significant factors such as weight, reach, style, etc. I'm not saying you do that, but many Rocky fans on the forum do.