Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

Did you know that Liston could throw uppercuts and push his opponents back?

 

Yes I did know that. This would be more of an inside manoeuvre wouldn’t it rather than a long punch wouldn’t it?

At the short distance, where Sonny can try this, he’s also within Rockys range isnt he?

 

True MDWC,and ChokLab are not going to be dissuaded from there opinions.

MDWC makes some very good posts on different subjects.

 

Liston is over 25lbs of muscle heavier than Marciano,why would he be worried about Marciano at close range?

 

It's a physiological thing. A 200 pound man, assuming he's packed muscle and isn't just a string bean or fat, has the frame and fast twitch fibers to hang with many other men over 200. You have to consider several factors such as styles, skill, experience, etc, but generally speaking an elite guy whose 205 won't automatically crumble against a guy 230+ unless the opponent is just flat out better in multiple categories and has a solid game plan to win.

When you wrestle and box, you notice a big difference between men over 200 and men below that weight. Maybe that's some sort of sweet spot in terms of competition and more research needs to be done, but it's something I've seen consistently. As you pointed out, sometimes they heavyweight division has an inflation where even the low 200's range isn't ideal and you might want to come in at 210+ (such as the 70's and 80's) but it ebbs and flows. This is partly due to the rules. In a 15 round era where the ref actually penalizes excessive clinching and leaning, it wouldn't be wise to come in flabby and over 230. In a more lenient 12 round era with slower pace and action, have extra weight helps even if it's fat (but, again, there's many factors such as the clash of styles). Fury is likely the pinnacle of what a tall fat guy can pull off in a lenient era. He'd still be elite in other time periods, but his style and diet would probably need some adjustments if he went further back in time.

 

It's a religion.

For some, it's part Napoleon complex (short guys identifying with Rocky), part hero worship (fanboy adoration to the extreme).

 

Right now, there's only one guy under 220 in the Ring top 10. That guy is over 6'6" and can make a muscular 240 at need.

It might be that guys naturally around 200 are able to bulk up to the right size, but even if so, none of them seem to believe that they should stay at 200.

 

How the hell did you go from talking about Liston vs Rocky, to talking about Tyson, to talking about Ali? You're all over the place and bringing up 7 different topics.

 

Good think you weren't doing the ratings.

You realize just because YOU don't have him in your top ten doesn't change the fact he was rated right?

Even by your laughable standards, Richardson would still be top 15, which is still world-class.

 

On the 12 vs 15 round thing: I'm not sure that that's the determining factor. FOTC is considered the gold standard for high pace elite boxing in the 70s "Golden Age," and I'm pretty sure several modern 12 rounders have gone past those punchstats.

 

I brought up the uppercuts and pushing because for some reason you think all Rocky has to do is get past the jab and the fight is his. You aren't making some astounding observation that an uppercut is a short range and not a long range punch. The point being, Liston was good at multiple range and would beat Rocky's ass even if he did get close.

Since people keep bringing him up for some reason, Mike Tyson said something to the effect of "even if I got past the jab, I'd only have to now deal with the full power of Liston".

 

Exactly, they can bulk up if necessary adjust to whatever the most ideal is for the HW division. Guys like Wilder and Usyk are viable in any era because they can pack on more muscle or lose weight and still be functional and elite. So I agree with you to an extent that inflation can be a thing, but I doubt we'll ever have a HW era where you absolutely "must" be 230+ or you'll lose for sure. If that happens, they'll probably just make super heavyweight.

 

Like I said, one of several factors.

And we all know how fat guys like Kownacki and Miller are able to throw an absurd number of punches well into the 12th

 

I don't think that there's an era where a 190 pound guy would lose "for sure" either. Certainties are hard to come by.

But we do live in an era where the professionals think it's a bad idea to come in under 220+. If you time-machined most 1960-1970 heavyweights into 2023, they would fall under that bar.

Could they bulk up? Probably, but we haven't seen them bulked up on film. A 228 pound lean, bulked up young Ali never existed, for example. Nor a 215 pound Patterson. I prefer to take them as they existed, unless specified otherwise in a thread.

 

Yes. Tua / Ibeabuchi is a good example as well.

It might be a factor, might not. There's some argument to be made, but I think most of the size increase is from improvements in training (and possibly recruitment / demographics.)