Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

Let's not forget it was close to being stop in the 50's and Marciano was giving 1 more round and Marciano made the most of that round. Oddly outside of the nose, Marciano was well in front of the cards, and Charles was hurting as well.

 

Well Jack Dempsey did let Charlie Chaplin beat him up. So Marciano getting slap by a comic in a funny way is just that, for comdey.

 

The reach difference would be ludicrous. Sonny would practically be able to do that thing where you hold someone's head away at arm length while they swing.

 

You certainly ran away from that debate awfully fast chok - that considering Hagler and Marciano on even terms as being likely to be knocked out is being generous to Hagler. I would have too quite frankly as it was absolutely ABSURD!

Having said that i am reasonably partial to both your comments, in fairness.

Walcott was indeed a brilliant sniper with excellent power and the list wasn't strictly based on power but on greatness as a puncher and it also seemed a little partial to P4P so arguing Walcott a higher place sure wouldn't get opposed by me. He troubled Louis with sharp hard to see counters too. He absolutely sparked Charles.

Hart does have very little on board along the lines of actual achievements per victories and KO's over quality opponents. Mugabi is actually the same and you could well have used him too.

They showed the list was quite flexible, quite a few got in on recognised power over results and a surprising amount got in on results over power as some were actually pretty damn average, power wise alone. Hart tho has numerous accolades from quality opponents and obviously that's 90% or better of what got him in. Lots of stories of his power back in the day and a bit of a cult following almost. He's a bit of a Shavers with far less on the results front.

I'm also partial to Marciano's chin being talked up to an extent, he was never stopped and recovered fast from the rare flash KD. You're effort however to not only try and compare him to Hagler, one of the greatest ever chins and extremely proven, but to insinuate he was ahead was a terrible terrible option. You should have attempted to compare him to guys that had been knocked down but always got up in their primes. It wouldn't have sold but you could have highlighted Ali and Holmes getting dropped various times in their career and always coming back in their primes. You would have came up against the size and quality debate bit it still would have been far less ludicrous than the Hagler stance you took which was simply untenable.

 

Oh come on man,Beterbiev would be really pushed to beat the likes of Patterson,Williams,Folley and Machen.
On paper they may not have been vastly bigger than Beterbiev but they were bigger.Remember those '60s men boiled down to minimum weight.
Trainers really placed emphasis on heavyweights coming in at their lightest possible weights.It's
really stretching things to make the comparison with Beterbiev.

 

I have learned a lot in this thread. I'm going to scout every gym on the West Coast for a wee Italian dude who has T-Rex reach, cuts easily, is slow as molasses and has two left feet. I'm going to train him up on the basics, get him the softest schedule possible while fighting in the same arena 75% of the time, before unleashing him on the oldest, smallest elites I can find.

Then, I will make my millions!

 

Yep,my fault,I should have specified that I was referring to their second fight.However yes both men endured
tremendous punishment in their first fight.
A testimony to the courage of Charles and Marciano.

 

I think a prime Joe Louis would beat Rocky and I think Jack Johnson would too. I would give Ali a decent chance of winning a series.

I actually give Foreman and Liston decent chances as well. I don’t rule them out.

Schmeling would be tricky.

All those bigger superheavyweights I won’t entertain on account of them not being able to exist in the form that we knew them as in Marcianos time. They are fine to exist among other modern physical cheats though within their own SHW division.

 

I agree. I've always felt Liston's height in particular, was significantly stunted, as all his other physical attributes did not match his height at all.

 

pitstop champions do beat rulers, as you demonstrate here. This is usually discovered only once they have fought. My point is when are pit stoppers given a chance over rulers before they meet? Prime for prime selections in fantasy fights need to consider this.

some could say using Frazier v Foreman, where Frazier was a huge favourite, is the best example of a hindsight pick. That is applying that result, with the benefit of hindsight, in another selection between two other champions.

yes Douglas is a pitstop guy. Massive underdog going in. Deserves credit.

Typically a pitstop champ is great enough to win the title but cannot hold it together too long beyond that point.

 

What you fail to factor in is that not all rulers are considered equal. For example Marciano and Ali. You also fail to embrace Liston and Foreman just happening to have the GOAT blocking their era. Frazier too in the long haul. It's disingenuous not to factor this in. Most consider all three above Marciano H2H, as well as Ali obviously.

The likes of people like Louis, Ali, Tyson and Holmes had far more defences that Rocky, as many or more than the difference between him and the pit stop rulers. Via your rules it would only be logical that all those guys should be conclusively favored over Marciano.

Let's just admit Liston was the best heavyweight in the world prior to getting his shot, too. Christ, even Floyd would admit this.

Foreman ended up being his daddy, and then some.

See, you're not talking about a low quality fighter in Liston. The guy is an ATG no matter how much you try and fit him into your basket.

There were multiple sharks in the waters Buster swam in and he wasn't built for longevity mentally anyway, obviously.

The way his guns were firing that night would you put your life on Marciano beating him?

 

Fine post!

 

Half of Moore's ko's were over nobodies
But lets include him. I see two punchers of any note Walcott 38 ,Moore 39/41
Both knocked him down.
Now how about you answer the question.
Who are the punchers Marciano fought?

 

Liston would be 50/50 against Lastarza.
This is based on all Lastarza's big wins? Which you will now name?

 

No I wouldn’t put guarantees on Marciano beating anyone who looked as great as Douglas on his best night. But that goes for most on their very best night when it comes to guarantees. I can make a case for anyone to beat anyone. Not just Marciano over Liston. But Liston over Marciano too.

nobody ever asks me this. But I can equally make a case for Sonny if asked.

I merely defend Marcianos case because he has a strong case. Not to be easily dismissed.

I agree. Sonny is an ATG fighter. He just doesn’t deserve, in my view, the kudos of KO guarantees over so many fellow ATG. He beats some. He stops some. But there are no guarantees because his championship form doesn’t necessarily reflect guarantees.

like everyone else Sonny was the best in the world outside of the champion until he beat the champion. He had to do it to prove it. And Sonny was never in line to go ahead of Ingo.

I acknowledge Ali being there.

And most are entitled to this view. Absolutely nothing wrong in favouring champions to beat Marciano on points.