Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

I'm curious if you can name just 2 boxers you think Rocky would lose to more often than not.

 

My guess would be that Liston would have been bigger if he'd grown up with the relatively abundant healthcare, food, and safety that even poorer people enjoyed in 1940s-1950s America.

Not that they didn't suffer as poor Boomers; just that they no longer suffered enough to shrink the population's physical dimensions.

Again, just a guess, based on Liston growing up in a poor and physically abusive family in a period when a few former slaves were still alive.

 

Maybe his big hands, long reach, and overall bulkier than average frame (especially for a guy just over 6 ft) are clues that he might have been slightly larger with a more stable environment and healthier food. He might not have fulfilled his full growth potential.

 

Why oh why do you keep spewing up this rubbish about Liston being a quitter ? Ok here we go again-Liston had been suffering from bursitis in his shoulders for a year leading up to the
first Ali fight.liston had been on cortisone shots during this time.
Just before the Ali fight he aggravated the problem in his left shoulder making the pain even worse.After each training session Liston had to resort to heavy icing and ultrasound therapy.
Sonny showed plenty of guts in just going through with the fight.
Do you honestly think that any modern fighter would fight under these circumstances ?
For the record several doctors had confirmed that Sonny had torn a tendon in his left shoulder.

As for the second Ali fight it is known that Liston had received death threats from the Nation of Islam.This plus Liston being continually subjected to what can only be described as hate from
a bigoted,mainstream press very probably made Sonny say to hell with it all.
Are you really unaware that in his 8th pro fight Liston fought several rounds with a broken jaw ? Are you really unaware that Lison sustained a broken nose after coming under a sustained attack from Cleveland Williams,one of the hardest pubchers in history ? Are you really unaware that
Liston kept his composure and eventually defeated Williams ?

Ironically your praise for Marciano's courage in enduring the enormous damage inflicted upon him by Walcott and Charles provides empirical evidence why Marciano would have been butchered by Liston.
Of course Marciano's courage is to be admired but my word if Walcott and Charles could do that to him the damage Liston would have inflicted on Marciano would have been horrific,it would have been worthy of an x-certificate.

Look,we all admire Marciano's courage,in fact we should admire the courage of every man who donned the gloves.
However it so blatantly obvious that Marciano was very,very lucky that circumstances prevented him from fighting Sonny Liston.

 

Foreman - Frazier for starters.

Isn't it strange and hard to fathom that not one but both of them were pitstop champs because both happened to come across the GOAT, and many years apart at that.

I'm sure coming across ether version of the GOAT at the start of his reign wouldn't have worried Rocky, right?

Mike Tyson was a ruler too, and Buster a pitstop champ. As a matter of fact Tyson defended the title more often than Marciano.

 

Indeed Sir,I am referring specifically to their second fight.

 

Let's not forget it was close to being stop in the 50's and Marciano was giving 1 more round and Marciano made the most of that round. Oddly outside of the nose, Marciano was well in front of the cards, and Charles was hurting as well.

 

Well Jack Dempsey did let Charlie Chaplin beat him up. So Marciano getting slap by a comic in a funny way is just that, for comdey.

 

The reach difference would be ludicrous. Sonny would practically be able to do that thing where you hold someone's head away at arm length while they swing.

 

You certainly ran away from that debate awfully fast chok - that considering Hagler and Marciano on even terms as being likely to be knocked out is being generous to Hagler. I would have too quite frankly as it was absolutely ABSURD!

Having said that i am reasonably partial to both your comments, in fairness.

Walcott was indeed a brilliant sniper with excellent power and the list wasn't strictly based on power but on greatness as a puncher and it also seemed a little partial to P4P so arguing Walcott a higher place sure wouldn't get opposed by me. He troubled Louis with sharp hard to see counters too. He absolutely sparked Charles.

Hart does have very little on board along the lines of actual achievements per victories and KO's over quality opponents. Mugabi is actually the same and you could well have used him too.

They showed the list was quite flexible, quite a few got in on recognised power over results and a surprising amount got in on results over power as some were actually pretty damn average, power wise alone. Hart tho has numerous accolades from quality opponents and obviously that's 90% or better of what got him in. Lots of stories of his power back in the day and a bit of a cult following almost. He's a bit of a Shavers with far less on the results front.

I'm also partial to Marciano's chin being talked up to an extent, he was never stopped and recovered fast from the rare flash KD. You're effort however to not only try and compare him to Hagler, one of the greatest ever chins and extremely proven, but to insinuate he was ahead was a terrible terrible option. You should have attempted to compare him to guys that had been knocked down but always got up in their primes. It wouldn't have sold but you could have highlighted Ali and Holmes getting dropped various times in their career and always coming back in their primes. You would have came up against the size and quality debate bit it still would have been far less ludicrous than the Hagler stance you took which was simply untenable.

 

Oh come on man,Beterbiev would be really pushed to beat the likes of Patterson,Williams,Folley and Machen.
On paper they may not have been vastly bigger than Beterbiev but they were bigger.Remember those '60s men boiled down to minimum weight.
Trainers really placed emphasis on heavyweights coming in at their lightest possible weights.It's
really stretching things to make the comparison with Beterbiev.

 

I have learned a lot in this thread. I'm going to scout every gym on the West Coast for a wee Italian dude who has T-Rex reach, cuts easily, is slow as molasses and has two left feet. I'm going to train him up on the basics, get him the softest schedule possible while fighting in the same arena 75% of the time, before unleashing him on the oldest, smallest elites I can find.

Then, I will make my millions!

 

Yep,my fault,I should have specified that I was referring to their second fight.However yes both men endured
tremendous punishment in their first fight.
A testimony to the courage of Charles and Marciano.

 

I think a prime Joe Louis would beat Rocky and I think Jack Johnson would too. I would give Ali a decent chance of winning a series.

I actually give Foreman and Liston decent chances as well. I don’t rule them out.

Schmeling would be tricky.

All those bigger superheavyweights I won’t entertain on account of them not being able to exist in the form that we knew them as in Marcianos time. They are fine to exist among other modern physical cheats though within their own SHW division.

 

I agree. I've always felt Liston's height in particular, was significantly stunted, as all his other physical attributes did not match his height at all.