Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

Yeah the NBA/WBA is definitely an unimpeachable source.

 

Well the first fight was such a classic, people wanted to see it again. Think of it like Fury Wilder of the day.

 

Meanwhile the man who had beaten Charles and taken his number1 spot got left on the sidelines whilst Charles got 2 bites of the cherry.

 

Thank goodness for common sense.

 

The man who beat Charles (Nino) wound up being eclipsed by charles right up until Marciano beat Charles. Until nino beat Huricane Jackson his 1953 win over Charles looked like a fluke because Nino wouldn’t rematch Charles. Meanwhile Ezzard flattens satterfield and Wallace. He’d already held wins over Moore and Gilliam after both beat Valdes and he’d beaten Layne, Brion and Harrison as well.

All Nino did until he beat Jackson was beat a couple of Europeans in Europe other than totally suck against James J Parker in Madison square garden and tread water against nondescript nonentities.

 

Who made the NBA official?
Which department of the government conferred that status on them?

 

Charles had lost 2 of his last 4 fights when he got his first title shot.
Now explain why Valdes needed to rematch Charles to earn his title shot? It's not as though it was a controversial split decision, it was a unanimous win for Valdes. Valdes went 9 straight after beating Charles . Among others Valdes beat Sys,Neuhaus,and Jackson ,both Neuhaus and Jackson were top ten Ring rated

 

They were better and more accurate than the Rings back then. Pretending that NBA ratings in the 1950s when it was run by a governing body are the same as the WBA ratings of the 1990s when it was run by a banana republic is obtuse and we both know your argument there is based on wanting to be right not on the actual facts. Ill take the NBA ratings any day over a magazine that had no officials status and didnt dictate who got title shots. You can cry about this person or that person not being rated #1 and say they deserved a title shot but at the end of the day the only ratings a fighter was beholden to were the NBA ratings and back then the NBA was at least trying to bring some semblance of order to the sport.

And this is all academic because your assertion that Valdes was #1 from the time he beat Charles until he lost to Moore is incorrect even by the Ring Ratings. Weve spoken before about your tendency to be a lazy armchair expert and just use whatever data you can quickly find on the internet to support your argument and here you are doing it again, as before, with the end of the year Ring ratings found in Boxrec. Valdes didnt get the #1 spot by beating Charles. In fact according to Ring's unofficial ratings Valdes didnt get higher than #4 by beating Charles and Charles only dipped from #1 to #2. The was reflected two months after Charles lost to Valdes in their October issue. LaStarza was elevated to #1 by Charles loss. Valdes was first rated #1 by Ring in Feb 1954 and only stayed there three months as you can see. So defer to the Ring all you want but even they dont agree with you. When Marciano defended against LaStarza and Charles x2 he was defending against his #1 contender as per your selected source:

Aug 1953

1. Ezz Valdes unrated

sept 1953

1. Ezz Valdes unrated

Oct 1953

1. Lastarza
2. Charles
3. Bucceroni
4. Valdez Valdez is fighter of the month for beating Charles

Nov 1953

1. LaStarza
2. Bucceroni
3. Charles
4. Valdez

Dec 1953

1. Lastarza
2. Charles
3. Valdes

Jan 1954

1. Lastarza
2. Valdes
3. Charles

Feb 1954

1. Valdes
2. Charles
3. LaStarza

Mar 1954

1. Valdes
2. Charles fighter of the month
3. Bucceroni

April 1954

1. Valdes
2. Charles
3. Bucceroni

May 1954

1. Charles
2. Valdes
3. Bucceroni

June 1954

1. Charles
2. Valdes
3. Jackson

July 1954

1. Charles
2. Valdes
3. Cockell

Aug 1954

1. Charles
2. Valdes
3. Cockell

Sept 1954

1. Charles
2. Valdes
3. Cockell

The NBA didnt rank Valdes #1 until October 1954 after Charles had lost to Marciano in the rematch. Wanna know when the Ring put Valdes back in the #1 spot? Dec 1954 which was their magazine covering the month of October 1954. So they rated him the same month as the NBA.

 

The NBA was a conglomeration of state sanctioning bodies and international sanctioning bodies. So while you are saying "what deptartment of government conferred that status on them?" as if such a thing didnt happen, it in fact DID happen. The vast majority of states in the USA conferred that status on them as well as most of the major international sanctioning bodies abroad.

 

What was Lastarza doing when he got his title shot? A split dec win over the only ranked man he fought between Marciano fights!

 

from the 1920s the NBA gained international support as an official governing body working with athletic commissions.

By late 1948, New York and Massachusetts were the only states where boxing was conducted which were not members of the NBA. New York had its own highly-influential New York State Athletic Commission (NYSAC).)

• 1948-11-26: NBA indefinitely suspends Rocky Graziano in all parts of the world under NBA supervision, announces President Abe Green, following similar action by the California State Athletic Commission. This was due to Graziano's "running out" on a scheduled Dec. 1 bout with Fred Apostoli. The suspension covered most American states, Great Britain, the European Boxing Federation, Cuba, Mexico, and Canada.

 

Thats not entirely true. The NBA was an association of state and international boxing commissions. Those commissions were governmental organizations. Thats why the current situation with the out of control sanctioning bodies makes no sense to me. If state organizations simply refused to acknowledge their legitimacy, now that they are no longer government affiliated, and refused to let them do business in their state (or country) they would lose all power and legitimacy.

 

I've never claimed to be an expert.
You have your opinion of me and I know you are aware of my opinion of you so let's leave that there.

 

Let’s stick with Nino for now. After four consecutive losses to Moore, Johnson Mcbride and Gilliam he beats Charles out of the blue. Now Charles already has wins over Layne and Harrison since losing the title and is willing to rematch Valdes. Charles beats Gilliam and has already thrice beaten Archie Moore years earlier.

Rather than rematch Charles Nino then fights once in Cuba and twice in Europe before disappointing fans in New York against James J Parker. An awful fight.

But while this was going on Charles, like Valdes, dropped a decision to Johnson then impressed against Satterfield and Wallace scoring exciting kayos to stay ahead of Nino in the official ratings.

Marciano is ordered to meet Charles the official logical contender.

Then after Marciano beats Charles, Valdes beats Tommy Jackson in 1954 to become official logical challenger to Marciano. The time he goes ahead of Charles.

 

Brilliant response