Sonny Liston vs the following Louis foes

How many of them were not ranked at one time or another

I said I didnt see where Schmeling was more scientific than Machen and Folley,don't put words in my mouth,I find I can speak very well for myself.
Brimm also lost to Robinson. A month after drawing with Robinson, Brimm drew with Basora
Five days before fighting Brimm, Robinson had fought Gene Buffalo
Brimm beat Artie Towne and Holman Williams,pretty good scalps I think.
All the guys you named were ranked at one time or another.
I'd pick
Folley
Machen
Johansson
Terrell
Jones
To beat Uzcudun and several of the others would be toss ups. I believe Uzcudun left the ratings in1929,his 2nd and 3rd fights with Schmeling were in 34 &35.
I'm aware Folley lost a debatable decision to Cooper,I'm also aware he bombed Cooper out in 2 rds in the rematch.
Machen lost to Mildenberger and Ramos when he was washed up.

Tell us about all Hamas' great wins.

 

Fair enough. I kept the possibility of a knockout because Lem is the same caliber as Williams, massive punchers with questionable chins (both knocked out 8 times by the way). In any case, there's more chances of Bob dropping Cleve for a 10 count than the reverse.

That's somehow supposed to make it better? He had a massive advantage that he immediately recognized.

Must've hurt. Took his loss against a subpar fighter and then learned how to beat him and did it twice. Good fighters improve. Like Max came back to beat Ernie Schaaf.

 

There's a shock. I bet you'd scoff at their chances against Williams if they fought today.

More reasonable but I disagree.

This is disingenuous. Ali was known for telling jokes about his opponent's and dismissing them. In his book he wrote Foreman was the hardest puncher he'd faced (though the book was written before he fought Shavers)

I certainly would. Lesser men then them put Louis on the canvas.

Foreman's punches weren't telegraphed. Wide, and sloppy yes, but not telelgraphed. Certainly not anymore than Baer, or Galento who knocked him down.

Norton was knocked out once in his prime.... by an ATG in Foreman. Galento, and the Baers while powerful (Max was the most powerful puncher of all time imo) were not skilled enough to make it count against an opponent of Norton's quality.

He "had to be" robbed against Ellis as well. It means nothing about the quality of the 70s, just because an ATG did well against a contender from that era.

Good thing nobody from the 30s would put him in a long coma besides Louis. Galento and the Baers in particular would be countered to death.

Yeah, that's an understatement. It was his SEVENTH pro fight. Liston was thrown to the wolves early.

Loughran had 25 losses, losing more than 1 out of 7 times he stepped in the ring. Him and Ramage had their hands full with the other Sonny they faced. Sonny Boy Walker. Going 1-1-1 with him.
But yeah I forgot, because Ali the GOAT, beat a past-prime, aging, rusty, injured Liston, that means any other half-assed boxer could do so as well.

Untrue. He showed excellent stamina against Whitehurst as well, throwing more punches in the last round than he did in the first.

Completely untrue. Ali and Dundee both admitted the blinding was unintentional.

Let's just ignore that debilitating shoulder injury confirmed by doctors, and the Miami Boxing Commission.

Liston undeniably had the skills and stamina to go 15, he just never needed to. He looked much better at the 12 round mark, better than many champions did at the same point who ended up going the full 15. He certainly wasn't gasping for air, and falling over at that point.

Funny you mention that. Cleveland Williams badly bruised Liston's face and broke his nose. Valdez shut his eye. Remind me, did Liston quit after that?

A win over Schmeling wouldn't be in Liston's top two wins.

 

The difference being Franklin had 48 fights and retired at 28.

Williams had 97 and retired at 41with 5 of his 8 stoppage losses coming after he had been shot!
Williams chin was okay,not granite but not as soft as Franklin's.Pastor wouldn't stop Williams but the reverse is eminently possible light hitting Conn, a lhvy stopped him.

 

Hamas was 28 years old when he retired (due to the beating that Schmeling gave him) and had beat everyone that he had fought in the ring. He was a ranked contender.
Tommy Loughran, Lee Ramage and Schmeling are pretty good victories.
I don't think any of those guys could beat Schmeling, Baer or Uzcudun.
Who did Jones or Johansson (outside if Patterson) ever beat?

 

He might. The Baers would have a good chance. The problem with the rest of the list except Simon is Listons reach and jab. Schmelings facing an 8 inch reach advantage and for the smallest 4 its 10-12. These guys faced that sort of reach with Carnera etc but with someone smaller faster and whose main weapon is the jab thats asking alot of them. Thats not even getting into Listons power etc.

 

Jones was top ten ranked for 5 years ,he beat;
Foster
Folley
McNeeley
Schoppner
Rademacher


Ingo beat;
Patterson
Neuhaus
Ten Hoff
London
Richardson
Cooper
Machen
Cavicchi
Bygraves

Which ranked fighter did Ramage beat?

 

Sonny at his best destroys every one them EASILY---can't see any of them lasting more than 5-6 rounds tops!! (Schmeling MIGHT put up a decent fight but I envision Liston dispatching him in a similar fashion to Joe Louis in their legendary 1938 rematch at Yankee Stadium.)

 

No, but it sure made it a much easier fight. I think Baer gets underestimated H2H due to it.

 

You make it out as if Liston was some sort of technical marvel in his prime

Liston would struggle due to the fact that Baer wouldnt back down from him, has comparable power along with a much better chin than Cleveland Williams, along with the fact that Liston wouldnt have his oft-enjoyed reach advantage against Baer. Its easy to bully with the jab and 1-2, but difficult when you risk a counter overhand right from someone as powerful and gifted as Baer.

 

Leo Lomski
King Levinsky
Maxie Rosenbloom
Babe Hunt
Jimmy Hanna
An undefeated Steve Hamas
And he outboxed Louis in their first bout and was ahead on points before being kayoed in the 8th

Funnily enough (unless I'm misremembering) I seem to recall you scoffing at my mention of Ten Hoff when we were discussing Walcott now your more than happy to name drop him as a decent opponent. Interesting.

 

Which of those were ranked? Ramage outboxed an 11 fight ,19 years old Louis for a few rounds before the teenager caught up with him and stopped him, flooring him 4 times. Is that his claim to fame?

 

He as undeniably one of the most well rounded champions in history, and was one of the most technically sound after Louis himself so yes I'd call him a technical marvel.

Like I said earlier in this thread, I'm not sold on Baer's durability. Certainly never tested on by someone of Liston's caliber (with the exception of Louis who didn't hit quite as hard as Liston). He was also much much worse than Williams defensively, lacked any jab whatsoever, and had zero defense. Call me crazy, but I don't see Sonny exactly going life and death here.

I don't understand this claim. Liston beat opponents with bigger reaches than himself. As a matter of fact, Liston did best against opponents larger than himself. Also Liston would have an "oft-enjoyed" reach advantage here. Baer's reach was 81 to Liston's 84.

Liston would see that telegraphed right hand a mile away (if Baer finds the ring IQ to use it which is quite frankly doubtful) and make Baer pay.


Ffs can we please stop trying to make Baer into some top ten H2H fighter?

 

Max was an ATG puncher with serious technical flaws, Liston was an ATG puncher and a well rounded boxer.He is easily in my top 10 all time.

 

Problem was keeping him there.

And both Baer and Galento were countered with 3 punches for every punch they threw. Foreman would be no different. It's just not a style that Louis had trouble with, he preyed on it.

Norton's chin failed every time he was against a decent puncher. Galento was not scientific but that left hook would land at some point. It's not like he couldn't land it on people of Norton's stature (Louis, Nova, Baer). Buddy was good enough to land on Savold, I don't think Norton could matrix dodge all the punches. He didn't against George and Ernie, no reason to think he would here.

That's still an old fighter having a lot of success against the ubermen division. Not so unbeatable for the best of the 1930s guys.

As he would be in the 1930s.

Both were better than Marty Marshall.

Whitehurst gave almost no pushback. He wasn't even a ranked contender at any point in his career, to my knowledge.

That was nevertheless an advantage that Sonny immediately recognized and tried to capitalize on, poorly so and gassed himself out.

Liston was making use of his left just as he did in any other fight. He couldn't take Ali out, even after the handicap, then Ali came back took control of the fight and Liston stopped. It's too suspicious that he claimed injury just as he was losing control.

Difference was that Liston could beat those guys. He could take their punches in the early rounds and then take them out. With Ali he had to box against a guy who kept hitting him with lefts and rights, and the fight would go the full 15. That's where heart comes into play, and for Sonny, it didn't.

Depending on how you rank Patterson, he would be.