Sonny Liston vs the following Louis foes

X3

Man I really like agreeing with you guys, I have to type a lot less LOL

 

I agree. I was just disputing your claim Norton's chin would crack as soon as he met someone with decent power.

Well technically speaking, Ali was a much better puncher than the Baers even if he didn't hit nearly as hard.

I just watched Galento again. Hands down, open like a barn door. There would be no trading involved I'm afraid.

Louis was down ten times in his career.... not exactly Chuvalo. Also the only reason Galento beat Nova is because he blatantly fouled him.

Well no he didn't. In between them, was Larry's bout with Randy Stephens where commentators remarked he was aging and not the same fighter.
He was stilled passed his best against Holmes by his own admission. Even in the third fight against Ali, he'd visibly slowed down. His absolute peak was the second Ali fight imo. He always said he gave up after feeing he was robbed against Ali in the third bout, and only really made an effort to train against Young and Holmes, and his performances reflect that. Holmes was his last hurrah imo.

Beats them all for my money except maybe Schmeling, and Max Baer.

Fair point.

Liston had not yet reached his prime by the Whitehurst bouts. Also, Liston knocked him out of the ring in that tenth round.

This doesn't mean anything regarding his injury. He's confirmed to have had an injury going into the bout which progressively got worse with each passing round. This isn't unheard of at all, and actually very common for someone suffering from bursitis, which can cause pain and inflammation to come suddenly.

It was his 7th pro fight, against a very unconventional fighter who was ranked at one point. Who was Louis fighting in his 7th pro fight? Who were all these ATGs fighting at that point in their careers?

Foreman had to tap into his "willpower reserves" to get off the canvas in a fight that also didn't last longer than five rounds. Are you seriously gonna say he didn't show serious mental fortitude in this fight either? The lack of credit you wanna give Liston is ridiculous.

So let me get this straight; other bouts where he overcame serious adversity, including a broken nose, and being nearly knocked out, we can toss to the side. As well as his bout with Machen, where he overcame serious adversity, and adapted beautifully, but the Ali bouts when he was at the minimum of 34 and most likely much older, and fighting through an injury are fair game.

"CHARLES (SONNY) LISTON v was on cortisone for five days immediately prior to his ill-fated title defense on Feb. 25, according to a report released Tuesday by the Senate Antitrust and Monopoly subcommittee. prepared by the State's attorney's office of Dade county, the report quoted Liston's adviser and personal physician as saying that Listen also was under going physiotherapy for pains in his left, arm for an 8 day Period before the fight. The Miami boxing Commission was not notified of the treatment, the report said. After the fight, according to the report, Dr. Lester Russin and other doctors at Miami's St. Francis Hospital confirmed Liston's injury as an inflamed tendon in his left arm. Dr. Russin was quoted as saying the condition was "particularly prevalent in older athletes".

"The report said that Dr. Russin estimated Liston's actual age as between 38 and 41. The former champion has listed himself as 30 years old."

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/98505474/the-philadelphia-inquirer/

He didn't get shut down in the first Ali fight. This is a complete myth. They were dead even on the cards at the time of the stoppage.

He had ONE unranked fighter go the distance with him when he was still not quite in his prime. I don't know why you make such a big deal out of this. Tillis was unranked going into the Tyson bout, and did far better against Tyson than Whitehurst did against Machen.

When you; dismiss Liston overcoming many obstacles including a broken nose, a broken jaw, a shut eye, etc, accuse Liston of blinding Ali when there is zero proof and something Ali, and Dundee themselves dismissed, bring up the Marshall loss in Liston's EIGTH pro bout, it's pretty clear there is an agenda at play.

Highly unlikely he drops a fight to either of them in a series. Zero basis for such a statement other than your obvious bias for the era.
Though I can see them having some success. I can also see them getting bombed out.

Foreman wasn't exactly Mr. defense, but he covered up far better, than Galento who again was wide open as a barn. Baer's defense was a bit better than Galento's but not by much, and similar to his brother, he also lacked any semblance of a jab, was an absolute plodder, and didn't set up his attacks well at all. So sorry if I think Foreman has a wee bit more success against these men.

You say that as if one of the people he lost to wasn't the GOAT. Upon his return, post Ali, he was a shell of himself. His loss to Young doesn't matter unless we're matching post-Zaire Foreman against Louis, in which case I'd favor Louis whole-heartedly.

Schmeling had about 8 losses, and 4 draws going into his fight with Louis.

Absolute non-sense. He also has a bigger win than guys like Holmes, and Tyson. Is he better than them as well?

Better courage? We'll have to agree to disagree here. For all the **** that Patterson gets, he was not a coward. D'amato steered him clear of certain people (Machen and Folley). But it's not like Patterson wanted to avoid anyone. He fired D'amato so he could give Liston the title shot he genuinely deserved and give him his chance, and even went back in the ring with him again after being destroyed the first time.

He also took the title back from the man who dethroned him. Not just dethroned him but brutally knocked him out. Patterson was much much faster, and will beat him to the punch consistently for my money. Schmeling doesn't have Liston, or even Ingo level power to bother Patterson.

This isn't a given, and is absolutely up for debate. The only thing that's not up for debate, is Schmeling isn't undeniably better like you're making him out to be. You're stating a lot of your obviously biased opinions as facts, with very little to back them up, such as saying Liston would lose some fights in a series to Sharkey or Schmeling, Foreman has zero chance against Louis, etc.

 

Liston cleans up. Just like he did in the fifties. These guys were not better then who he fought in the fifties. Folley and Machen could beat all the Louis foes and Williams would destroy all those guys and Liston pulverized those 3. Louis never had to fight good black fighters like those 3.