Sonny Liston vs. Vitali Klitschko

Why is Lewis the best ever head to head heavyweight?

Shoot.

 

Lewis had so many natural advantages over other heavyweights.

Size - he was a big man, a 'super' heavyweight
Power - when lewis wanted to rush you and ko you early he did it, he also had one punch ko power, up there with Foreman, Tyson etc.
Speed - he was quick for a heavyweight, not the quickest ever but top 10 speed
Smart - he was a very smart fighter in the ring and was not a guy that would fall for mind games.
Intimidating - I think his presence and cool exterior scared many fighters.
Great combination puncher with a great jab, power in both hands.
Athlete - he's a man with great coordination for his size.

Put him against the following fighters and its one way traffic; Dempsey,Tunney, Louis, Marciano, Patterson, Liston, Frazier, Holmes, W Klit.

I also think he beats Ali, he's tooo big, smart and powerful for Ali, this is no Zaire Foreman we are talking about. LL is tough to beat when he is in his prime.

P4P not the best ever heavyweight and I often wanted Lewis to lose and was annoyed by some of his performances - but I'd back him if my mortgage depended on it against all the greats most of the time.

 

I missed a number of things - but strength is another, nobody is pushing Lewis around the ring he was a beast.

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jrxlOMl0Y2s/VCjqYqSJIXI/AAAAAAAAO84/UPVBsVvs8BI/s1600/WhiplashSimmons.jpg

Little trouble there.

A prime Tyson was all wrong for Lewis. As was prime Bowe.

And he's untested against a quick mover like Ali.

 

I'd give Tyson a shout against him for maybe 3 rounds, but I could also see Lewis jumping on Tyson early and getting a quick KO a la Ruddock/Golota.

But yeah Tyson does have the attributes to do a job on Lewis.

 

All of the above is true, but, and there is a but, he was probably the least durable of the top 10 heavyweights.

That gives the best finishers a good chance.

 

Yeah - I think his durability is a question mark, that said he was caught be 2 great shots of two big men and I do not think the pre 60's fighters could trouble him (great as they were). Ali was not a big enough puncher to ko him and I think Lewis out boxes him, Tyson does have a chance as do other less great fighters like Bowe and V Klit, because styles make fights as we know.

 

Although there can be no excuses, I think it is fair to say if Lewis had known he would face Vitali instead of Johnson he would have taken his training camp far more seriously. I believe however Vitali trained to his absolute maximum for ALL of his fights.

Sop here we are again with the arrogant LL who seemed to decide who was worth training hard for, and who wasn't. As much as I liked Lennox, that part of him was a bit too disrespectful to the other fighter for my liking.

 

Not true wladimir klitschko is the better of the two. He is closing in on the record number of title defenses and has cleaned out the divisions best for many years now. His resume Blows vitali out of the water.

Sanders purity never fought the new and improved prime version of klitschko. Peter did once in 2010 and he got knocked out cold. Vitali could not put Peter on the floor.

The 2007-2012 wladimir is a better fighter than vitali ever was

 

Well he certainly paid the price for it.

 

Vitali didn't need an intervention and a new and improved version of himself to beat easily Purrity , Sanders and Peter. Neither did guys like Chambers and Helenius.

Vitali didn't didn't need to foul and cheat Peter to win either.

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2010/09/steward-was-telling-wladimir-to-stop-clinching-peter/

Vitali was 10x the fighter of Wlad.

 

Everyone would say Liston, Frazier, and Ingo hits harder then DeJohn who has a low KO%, took many journeyman the distance, and I believe failed to stop a top ten opponent.

Some might argue that DeJohn hit as hard as Cleveland Williams. I'll settler for 3 as a given, and 1 that most would agree with me.

If you think DeJohn was a better puncher than Liston, Frazier, or Ingo, you're severely outnumberd in that thought.

Oliver McCall said some journeyman hit harder than Lennox Lewis. Fighters are full of BS. Sometimes the best punchers KO their guys clean and numb them so the fighter stopped doesn't remember the blow as well as a sustained beating and stinging punches that did not land as hard over the course of many rounds

Chavalo lasted 4 rounds vs Frazier, and 3 rounds with Foreman. He went the distance with DeJohn and likely took more punches, which increased the pain. Again no one here will say DeJohn hit harder than Foreman.

Machen didn't bust up Liston's nose and cut him in short order. Williams did. I would say Williams did more damage to Liston in a shorter amount of time than anyone he fought

I do. As stated Machen did not win one match vs the three hardest punchers he fought. Liston, Frazier and Ingo. He did not beat what I would view as the 4th or 5th puncher ( Williams and Patterson ) either.

You need to lump Dejonh in the first tier because its clear as daylight that Machen simply did not have enough to defeat the better punchers.

I already explained that Valdes lost 3 of his last four leading up to the Machen fight. On film Valdes is a gun shy fighter at times.

Machen had won 5 fights in a row prior to facing Williams, and defeated Risher just two months before. I'd say Machen was active and focused in the ring, other wise he pulls an Oliver McCall. By the way Ring Magazine thinks Cleveland Williams is among the top 100 punchers ever.

You said Machen had best come back ever. I'm sorry that's laughable. He came back to what? He was never a champion. Foreman, Vitali, Ali...those guys had better comebacks.

But do they also have lots of losses vs lesser fighters? If they do, I think they are over rated.

Go ahead and compare their records vs top ten ring magazine rated opponents. You are mistaken. If they fought, Vitali easily defeats Machen. I say he does it easier than Liston did.

But 1955-1963 was a weaker time for heavyweights. From 1964 to 1967, Machen got his tail kicked. This is when Frazier and Ali were active, not in 1955.

And I say Machen didn't beat the best. We know this. He beat what would be viewed today as a small group of heavyweights. In fact most of them would be cruisers and light heavies. Yet you think they would be in the top ten today. NOPE, size and power matter too much.

 

Probably the most overrated.
He can't be the best Head-to-head ever when he proved so capable of losing to such mediocre fighters while actually in his prime years.

 

That's why we have chocolate and vanilla.

The same could be said for Lewis who actually fought a pretty "good" list of opponents.

Lewis lost to Rahman when he was 35 and to McCall before he had stepped up his game. Both men are better than Marshall and Martin, and both defeats were avenged.

The second one perhaps. The first I think he was beaten pretty legitimately. Weather Liston threw that second fight in the tank or not has never been confirmed. But he wasn't going to beat Ali regardless.

 

Yeah, I reckon Liston was better, that's all.