Sonny Liston vs. Vitali Klitschko

If you thnk that link has any pretensions towards objectivity, you are even dumber than your previous post suggests.
Klitschko had 60 stitches inserted in his cuts ,for that fool to write "this is championship boxing", as though it was a minor scratch, is as non-sensical as your arguments.

In your dreams Sonny!

 

While I have been critical of Vitali's resume, and especially his performance against Byrd,

I have to take him here.

Liston made his rep against men for the most part smaller than he was,

it is hard to imagine Patterson, Machen, Folley, Harris, Bethea, and the like being able to do much at all against the gigantic Vitali.

even the big men, Williams and Valdes, were much smaller than Klitschko and there is no reason to think they punched harder, or necessarily even as hard.

Zech and Wepner were the biggest guys Liston fought, but both had "soft" bodies while Vitali was definitely hard and way bigger than either of them (although Zech was perhaps as tall)

Byrd was used to fighting much bigger men.

I just don't see Liston jabbing Vitali that successfully w/o eating right crosses in return,

and on top of everything else, I think Vitali had the better chin.

*Good big man beats good little man.

 

Now if you keep extending that list, you will find that it ends up not much longer than one. Hence it was an aberration.

It comes down to this.

If there were a lot of fighters in that era that went into title fights with clean records you would have a point. The reality is that there weren’t. Liston and his opponents had losses in their early career, because that was almost inevitable in the era they fought in. There was no lengthy amateur career, and a professional did not get carefully managed, until they proved that they were worth investing in. For contrast Klitschko fought in an era where having a clean record going into your first title fight, was nothing remarkable.

In short you are basing your comparison between Liston and Klitschko, on the one variable that doesn’t tell you anything, except that they fought in different eras.

 

Liston beat up smaller men.
Vitali beat up smaller men.
Liston beat up HOF opposition.
Vitali did not beat up HOF opposition.

Both sides can play that game all day. The fight depends on one variable only, whether or no Vitali can keep Liston outside.

 

How about this one? Posted days before the Lewis v Vitali bout.
Lewis says that after Vitali, RJJ would be the natural finish to his career. No mention of a few more fights

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...s-grotesque-finale-as-Jones-enters-frame.html

 

"Liston beat up smaller men."
"Vitali beat up smaller men."

Vitali's smallest men were about as big as Liston and much bigger than most of Liston's name opponents. I think over 30 of Vitali's opponents were heavier than anyone Liston fought.

"Liston beat up HOF opposition."

Patterson, who weighed 189 & 194 for the two fights.

This is sort of like arguing that a middleweight who defeated welterweight or middleweight HOFers could automatically beat a good heavyweight who never beat any heavyweight HOFers. I that is a nonsense argument. By the way, how do you know none of Vitali's opposition might make the HOF. Gomez? Adamek?

a much better argument would be that Chris Byrd was about the same weight, and might have been a naturally smaller man, than Liston and he managed a victory over Vitali.

Like I said earlier, I'm not impressed with what Vitali actually accomplished in the ring,

but size does matter and he is huge compared to Liston or the men Liston fought.

 

Ron Lipton rates Liston #2 among the heavyweight champs. Watch Liston demolish giant Nino Valdez if you think height would make a difference. Liston would break him in half. This is without factoring in the benefit of today's training methods. Could you imagine Liston's strength with the benefit of strength training? Liston could box and he could punch, and he could do both very well.

 

Nino Valdes was washed up when he fought Liston and he was a tiny little man compared to Vitali Klitschko.

 

My point is both made a career out of bullying smaller men.

That is not like arguing that at all. That is like saying Liston beat up HOF and Vitali didn't. It's a fact.

I disagree about size being the deciding factor here. If Vitali isn't able to keep Liston at range he loses.

 

Seriously, who the hell did Klitshcko beat of any note? He made his reputation getting his faced sliced up by Lennox Lewis and beating up journeymen like Danny Williams. People on this forum need a serious reality check if they think that Klitschko could get the better of a banger like Liston.

 

to date, only 2 guys have made credible HW defences beyond the age of 37.


the rest all retired. lewis did the right thing, at the right time, which is what everyone else wouldhave done no matter who was or wasnt his next possible fight.

they were alle xpected by everyone to retire .EXCEPT by YOU APPARENTLY. Because of your agenda you cant stand that prime vits was stopped before halfway vs worst lewis.

 

He compares favourably in size to several of Klitchkos opponents
.

Adamek
Norris
Bean
Bryd
For starters and if you take half that greasy lard away from several others of his challengers such as Chisora,Arreola,Gomez, Williams ,that would be four more.

 

I actually think Liston's ability to intimidate smaller men goes out the window, and that was part of his best stuff. Liston was a bit of a fearful weak minded person who just happened to be very large in his time fighting much smaller in in some cases older/past their prime guys.

Can Liston take Vitali's punches? Based on how quickly he cut and swelled up, and how easily Ali and Martin ( EPIC KO on Liston ) hurt him I say no.

 

If intimidating opponents is a big part of his success then he will have a long day at the office against Klitschko.

 

"both made a career out of bullying smaller men"

And Liston would be much the smaller man.

"Liston beat up HOF and Vitali didn't."

I don't keep up with the latest HOF elections, but the last I saw the only HOF Liston beat up was Patterson.

But this point is beyond silly, as men like Adamek and Gomez are not eligible for the HOF yet. I think Vitali by far beat more men with world championship ranking. That does to a degree represent his era with all the alphabet organizations, but Adamek and Gomez might have been the #1 guy at cruiserweight at one time and might well make the HOF.

"I disagree about size being the deciding factor"

Well, I disagree with that. We have a 210 lb. man who his rep beating guys from 215 down into the 180's pitted against a 250 lb. man who made his rep beating men from 210 up into the 260's and 270's.

It is a new world out there.

If we were picking p4p, my choice might be different, but we're not and the much bigger man is the logical pick.