Sonny Liston vs. Vitali Klitschko

Vitali doesn't get tagged very often at all, actually. His footwork and body sway are deceptively good.

 

he does get tagged a fair bit, but not against shythed nobodies like charr.

 

Liston was not crude at all. He could box and he could really punch. In what fight was he "crude"?

 

Very true. Vitali's defense is underrated. In addition to Vitali's footwork, and body sway as you mentioned, his punch anticipation is excellent. He has some head movement and he's a master at knowing where he can and can't be hit.

 

Byrd and Chisora landed near every body shot they threw at him.

His face looked the way it did against Lewis because of his and shoddy low hand defence.

Kturdsatsch

 

I'll answer with a question of my own.

Do you think Carmen Basilio's opposition was better than, let's say, the men Roland LaStarza defeated or Rex Layne defeated?

In a p4p sense, of course, especially with LaStarza. But would Ike Williams or Johnny Saxton or Gil Turner or a 37 year old Sugar Ray be able to handle just ordinary heavyweights like Cesar Brion or Dan Bucceroni?

I think not, because several inches in height and 30 to 50 lbs. in weight would just be too much for them to overcome.

If you disagree, we just have no common ground and it is best to agree to disagree.

*I have been as critical as most of Vitali's actual performance against Byrd and not actually defeating the best of his era, but that is against the men of his era, not against men who would be in a weight class or two down.

**I don't know what is happening or why, but it a different world out there in not only heavyweight boxing but other sports. This will only mean something to Americans, but I remember when Mike Ditka in the 1960's was the best tight end. He was 6' 2" and 225. Today tight ends go 6' 5" to 6' 8" and 275 or so and still run and jump better than the old guys like Ditka did.

 

Who was the best man Williams put down for the count? Most of his KO's were of the TKO variety also.

Williams is the equal of any puncher?

I think nothing in his record points to that.

 

Byrd landed nearly half of everything he threw at Vitali.

At times he walked him down slipping inside.

I honestly do not see it as a one sided fight. Vitali had the better until his injury but over the 9 rounds it was close. If Vitali stays on his feet and loses the last 3 rounds but takes the decision I bet it would have been controversial.

The idea that he is too big for Liston is nonsense. If anything his advantage is his volume, durability and footwork. If he can throw from range and discourage Liston he will win. If he mixes it up close he will lose.

I just don't see how anyone can survive a 40% connect rate against Liston, honestly look at Liston, if he's landing 40% of his shots who in history is gonna stay standing?

 

"Liston never really showed any vulnerability to punchers."

Except when he got knocked out,

Dempsey in an article in Sport Magazine in early 1963 felt differently after being at ringside for the first Howard King fight. He thought King badly hurt Liston with a right but was so surprised he didn't follow up.

"losses outside prime"

But Vitali certainly might have fought to an older age, given that off the census Liston was probably born in the early 1930's.

*Vitali is the man who was never knocked down or seriously in trouble (other than cuts) in his career.

**small men having a lot of accomplishments against other small men doesn't equate to them beating much bigger men. The men Vitali fought on the whole are a world bigger than the men Liston fought or the men that fought the men Liston fought.

***and I think the quality of Liston's opposition is being overrated. Machen, Folley, Williams, Valdes, and the like were never champions and consistently lost their major fights.

 

I agree with you on the Byrd fight. I had it 5 to 4 Vitali after nine.

"who in history is gonna stay standing"

Perhaps Vitali. After all he was never off his feet or in bad trouble in a long career. I have been critical of him, but in fairness it must be considered as at least possible that he had the best chin we have seen so far in a boxing ring.

Your argument about his "poor" defense cuts both ways. If he was easy to hit, how did he manage to avoid getting knocked down over so many fights.

 

Absolutely not. His chin was good, above average even, but overrated. It wasn't iron. Lewis genuinely buzzed him with those uppercuts in the sixth. He needed to hold on to get out of the round. In contrast, Mercer for instance ate several uppercuts from a much sharper Lewis and responded by hitting back. Wasn't even buzzed. Another guy that would fit the bill would be Zeljko Mavrovic. Same case with Mercer, Lewis couldn't hurt him.

 

Actually THE uppercut, which was one of the single hardest punches I have ever seen a boxer get tagged with and remain standing. I'm surprised Vits' neck wasn't stretched out like a spring. Seriously, if that punch can't knock a guy down, then you need a bat.

Mercer has been put down by lesser punches.

So now, where do we stand?

 

He managed to avoid getting knock down because he had a good beard and very good balance.

But I'm sure Liston would find success and could pin him on the ropes like a ferocious bull dog.

 

I just have doubts about a man who typically enjoyed being the bigger, stronger and more intimidating fighter in the ring, and all of a sudden losing all those advantages and still winning.