Sonny Liston vs. Vitali Klitschko

Yes, past-prime he missed the best heavyweight mover in history a lot. This is true. Also irrelevant.

Liston won almost every round against Machen. I had it 10-2, or possibly 9-2-1, can't remember and can't be bothered to look because the point is moot. Liston was as clear a winner on points.

Expecting a puncher to knock everyone out is preposterous.

Overall, this data is about as relevant as Vitali's performance against Chisora, which is to say, not at all, unless you happen to think Vitali boxes anything like Muhammad Ali.

No it doesn't; it proves that he had no problem beating Machen, and it proves he didn't do well against ATG Ali while past-prime. That's the sum total of what it proves.

No it doesn't.

Cuts never cost him a fight. Vitali's history with cuts is far more costly.

Are you serious?

Liston quits to Muhammad Ali and he "has some quit in him", but Vitali quit against powder-puff vastly inferior Chris Byrd while ahead on the cards and you spend the next ten years explaining why he has the heart of a lion?

 

Mendoza. What. The ****. Are you talking about?

The seriousness of Liston's injury was attested to by SIX doctors.

Six.

And that information is all over this forum.

If you must indulge your fanboyism, please don't do it with stuff that was debunked ten years ago.

 

Well six doctors knew whose it was. I'll certainly take their word over Bert Sugar.

Both of these things are true. It is recorded fact that Liston's team asked for a postponement because he had injured his shoulder in training. It is a recorded fact that doctors decribed the injury as "serious enough to impede Liston in defending himself."

The big difference is that Liston was even on the cards with the GOAT, and Vitali was ahead against Christ Byrd. Different levels of quittage, and certainly in Liston's favour without being able to experience what each man was feeling.

This much is known: Vitali Klitschko quit to a fighter who was still making light-heavyweight 8 years later.

I don't disparage Vitali for his quit job; I can't know what he was feeling.

The fact that you will do so about Liston when you are clearly so pitifully badly informed on the subject speaks volumes.

 

I don't care what you would say; your entire life is informed by what is best on the forum for Vitali. Plus, you blatantly haven't scored it. So your opinion is invalid on two counts.

The cards you posted are despite three points being deducted from Liston.

Honestly, this stuff is all known, why are you digging?

Most fighters win injured at some point; many fighters win injured a LOT. Vitali quit in very similar circumstances to Liston versus a far lesser opponent.

That's the bottom line and one you will do anything to avoid admitting.

When you're punching up, yes. But you didn't say that. As has already been stated in this thread (which you haven't bothered to read), if you are punching in a straight line, perfectly plausible, it does not.

Additionally, you also lose range when you punch downward. Boxing 101. But, of course, you don't want to talk about that either.

Liston didn't have as many "combats" but he was never stop with a cut.

Vitali was.

In the biggest fight of his career.

What I said:

"Cuts never cost him a fight. Vitali's history with cuts is far more costly"

Is absolute, irrefutable fact beyond all hope of contradiction and still you have to flail at it because you think it "undermines" Vitali.

Absolutely not. Vital i would never ever have been in the ring with someone to have appeared in a Ring rankings list when 7-0; at the same time in his career, despite his great history of "combats" Vital was fighting a professional loser named Derrick Roddy who had lost his last five conests in the row.

Still, if Roddy had had his jaw broken by a freak Roddy punch, a break so serious that he was unable to close his mouth for the rest of the fight I, personally, think he would have quit. But we will never know.

Of course, you don't want to talk about Liston's insane bravery in carrying on with such a serious injury, nor do you want to entertain the notion that Vitali, having quit once with a serious injury, may have quit with another.

So, meh.

If he had gone on past prime long enough I think absolutely he could have been. We will never know quite how far Liston was gone, or how far Vitali, with his spooky longevity, would have had to have gone to be that vulnerable.

But, as always in discussions with you, I have to remind you that each fight is more than a Boxre statistic.