Sonny Liston vs. Vitali Klitschko

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Hookie, Oct 13, 2015.


  1. HerolGee

    HerolGee Loyal Member banned Full Member

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    only for face punches.


    listons punches line up directly with vitalis torso, likewise. great for body attacks.


    mute point.
     
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    You don't know if I scored it. I was just comparing your card to the others. I think Machen won more than three rounds.


    In hindsight if he knew how the press would have reacted he could have risked further injury and continued. Quitting in such a fashion is par for the course in the amateur games. The fact that he was well ahead vs Bryd, who achieved a rank as high as #1 tells you a lot. But if you really want to talk about quitter, the hall of fame is full of them. This loss to Byrd business is perhaps the most overblown thing on the board. It's far better to lose to Bryd with a major injury up on ponits then get your jaw broken and lose to a light hitting Marty Marshall!


    W
    I said
    a big height advantage, which shortens Liston's reach. I am correct. You disagreed and said " No it doesn't. " You were wrong. Punching up to hit Vitali in his head would cost Liston what I refer to as striking distance. Simply admit this mistake and move on....

    I already addressed this. Vitali's shoulder lines up near perfect with Liston's chin. A straight shot. In addition VK can widen his legs to punch lower without losing distance, or bend his knees. You post like you really do not understand this part of boxing.

    He might have v Ali if he didn't quit or faced better punchers who did not have glass jaws. He was marked up and cut a few times as I mentioned.


    Counterpoint, Vitali wasn't feed weakling early He only fought 2 men with losing records. All his opponents were really 200+-pound heavies. Liston won his fight via SD vs Summerlin. Vitali never lost more than three rounds in any fight. That how kick @ss he was in the ring.


    Liston's insane bravery? Your words, not mine or anyone else


    .

    Vitali lost his prime years, much like Ali did. Liston did not, and he was nowhere near as good as an older fighter.
     
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Who did Liston every hurt with a chest punch high? He never featured this type of punch.
     
  4. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Loyal Member Full Member

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    It's remarkable that in less than a year, Ali went from losing rounds to Jones and nearly being knocked out by Cooper to being the GOAT against Liston.

    Could it be that maybe, just maybe, the rate of Ali's development gets exaggerated to give Liston a pass?
     
  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    That might well be the case, but it could also be the rate of Liston's decline, or a plain stylistic issue.
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Did you score Machen-Liston?

    I actually agree; I was just pointing out your astonishing hypocrisy in underling Liston's "quit job" to a much, much, much, much better fighter in a much harder fight when Vitali quit in a much easier fight against a lesser opponent.

    And that's all. But you can't conjure with it.

    I am NOT WRONG. I am ABSOLUTELY IRREFUTABLY CORRECT.

    IF Liston is punching up, it shortens his reach. But his reach IS NOT SHORTENED BY VITALI'S HEIGHT.

    YOU are wrong.

    :lol:


    I haven't addressed the issue at all except to say that Vitali's height does NOT shorten Liston's reach, and I am right about that.

    The rest is in your head, entirely.

    :lol: or he might not have. The cut wasn't desperate, it was below the eye, it was the 1960s and a world title fight. At the very least, this is one of your more bizarre hail marys.

    And Vitali might have if HE had faced better punchers! Or better fighters! It's all make-believe lala land bs.

    Again: Vitali quit more embarrassingly, but you can't admit it, and cuts cost Vitali more than they ever cost Liston, but you can't admit it. What else is there to say?

    It's not a counterpoint, at all, and sheds absolutely no light on the quesiton as to whether or not Vitali would have quit with a broken jaw in an early fight. Given that, in your words:

    " Quitting in such a fashion is par for the course in the amateur games."

    I presume you think he probably would have?


    Yes? Liston's insane bravery in fighting on with a badly broken jaw, yes, his insane bravery? And?
     
  7. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Loyal Member Full Member

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    I think all three come into play. Ali would always have a stylistic edge on him, and I do think Liston mentally thought it'd be easier work because of the Jones and Cooper fights. Seeing his green opponent floored by a left hook knowing he had a great one himself, I could easily see how some overconfidence would creep in.

    Ultimately, there were a number of factors that played a role in it. But one I have a very hard time buying is that that particular fighter he stepped in the ring against that night had improved to GOAT level in such a short time span so nothing Sonny could've done or did would've mattered.
     
  8. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    When Lewis tried boxing with Vitali he made Vitali look like the best HW in the world.

    When he began to walk Vitali down and meet him punch for punch, he made Vitali look out of his depth.

    Vitali had an incredible chin which is why Lewis didn't spark him because by god did he ship some leather.

    The only question is would Liston be big enough to walk Vitali down as Lewis did? I think yes. I think it would become a war and I think Liston would win on points.

    Vitali will beat anyone he can keep at range, anyone. But never once did he show any in fighting ability (apart from an uppercut against Danny Williams in close). If Liston can force the pace I pick him to win.
     
  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I am with you on that one.

    Liston potentially had everything to play for, if he could bring his A game.

    Even knowing what Ali would become.
     
  10. Pugilist_Spec

    Pugilist_Spec Hands Of Stone Full Member

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    I think you should seriously consider the fact that Lewis looked like **** in that fight. He was so slow, not only in movement but reactions, he looked oafish, out of shape and huffing and puffing after 2 rounds. That was the worst Lewis ever.

    And it's not like Lewis was some master boxer himself. He was good, very good actually, but seriously, outjabbed by Mercer...Lewis was no Larry Holmes. He had the muscle to get himself out of situations like that though.

    Byrd boxed Vitali and I think he did really, really well.
     
  11. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I don't need to consider it. When he tried jabbing with Vitali he looked **** and Vitali looked great. When Lewis got the eye of the Tiger, gritted his teeth and went toe to toe he clearly was superior.

    The worst Lewis ever was against Rahman 1, by far.
     
  12. Pugilist_Spec

    Pugilist_Spec Hands Of Stone Full Member

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    But that Lewis was way past it. I don't know what's up with people acting like Lewis was prime in the 2000's.

    Lewis' peak is from the Morrison fight up to the Holyfield fights at best, no longer. Going in against Vitali he was much like Holmes against Tyson. Similar age, both rusty, both overweight. I've never heard anyone say Holmes was prime that fight.

    And again, Lewis was no master boxer so I can accept that point. He did what he always did when his opponent started winning the battle of jabs; smash his face in. And it worked.
     
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    As for Byrd, I had it 5-4 Vitali at the stoppage.

    But top HW like Byrd are few and far between. I bet you can count stylistically similarities on one hand: Byrd, Young, Johnson. I reckon that's it. Very few men had that ability up close.
     
  14. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I never said he was prime. I said when he tried jabbing with Vitali he made Vitali look great. When he tried punching with Vitali he made Vitali look inferior.
     
  15. Pugilist_Spec

    Pugilist_Spec Hands Of Stone Full Member

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