Sonny Liston, why is he ranked so highly?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc_x562-D_U[/ame]

 

However this doesn't go for 20 year old Cleveland Williams who was a late substitute against a great puncher in Bob Satterfield. But a prime 28 year old Corrie Sanders is excused for losing to a clubfighter in Nate Tubbs.

Williams KO'd Ernie Terrell.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbfCAwL3Euo[/ame]

Corrie gets up from KD

 

That was 2 yrs after his last loss to Liston and 5 yrs before Earnie Terrels fight with Ali, In fact Terrel beat Big Cat in the rematch the next year

 

Look Liston was one of my favorite fighters when I was a kid and after his loss to Ali for years I still thought Liston would have killed him if he was not in the tank.....These days I wonder, some fighters are good givers but when they give there all and the other guy keeps coming, they give up.....If it was not Ali, could it have been someone else...Ali could not do that (intimidate Doug Jones) why did he do it to Liston....Some fighters sense another fighters heart or will and they lose there own....I still think Liston is a bad -ass but I have to take that factor into consideration.

 

I don't see your point. Are you saying that Cleveland Williams wasn't in his prime against Liston?

Terrell beat Williams by a close, disputed SD. A third fight was to happen if not for Williams being shot.

 

No, I am saying that the win over Williams was a good win but Satterfield did it 12 fights earlier. In between Williams 3rd rd KO loss to Satterfield and 3rd rd KO loss to Liston, Williams had 12 fights, the best of those opponents was Frankie Daniels who went the distance with Williams 2 times. Daniels had 28 wins-13 losses, the rest of Williams opponents were buld up opponents.

You mentioned he TKO'd Terrell and I said then Terrell beat him a year later but Terrell vs Williams was 2 years after Williams KO loss to Liston and 5 years before Terrel was to meet Ali.

so what was your point...are you saying Williams best win was 2 years after Sonny stopped him

 

Williams also took 2 years off from boxing after the Satterfield loss and came back rejuvenated. He was at his peak at 26-27 years of age against Liston, not a 20 year old taking a big fight on a short notice.

Before the first Liston fight, Williams had also beaten European champ Dick Richardson and former contender John Holman. After the first loss to Liston, he beat Curley Lee who was a rising prospect at the time. After being KO'd by Liston again, he KO'd unbeaten George Moore, ranked Alex Miteff, Billy Daniels, Roger Rischer, Ernie Terrell and KO'd Alonzo Johnson who had never been stopped before in just one round.

So what if his best win was 2 years after Liston stopped him? Are you trying to say that the Cleveland Williams Liston fought wasn't in his prime?

 

I dont think wiliams was any beter than say johny shkor or lamar clark. I dont doubt he had a great punch and was impresivly built though.

 

Liston is ranked so highly because of his 84 inch reach for one, most of his weight and strength is in his upper body as you can see. Liston's power is undeniably strong, stronger then most heavyweights except for maybe Max baer and George Foreman
Sonny Liston's skill and chin is also under rated; i believe he could take a very good punch. he was pretty much washed up/ involved with mobs by the time he was fighting Ali and Leotis Martin. Liston's jab is rock hard, had Ali fought him a few years earlier it wouldn't have been the same (Liston was a lot faster in his earlier fights.) Sonny Liston dominated his era very well, and holds wins over Floyd Patterson, cleveland williams, Chuck Wepner, Sonny Moore, and Zora Folley.
Liston was the most intimidating man to ever step in the ring, Liston, Tyson, Foreman, and Holmes were probably the most intimidating.
All of Liston's punches were great, he did not rely on his jab, or his right hand. His hook is a strong punch as well as his uppercuts; All of them were devastating.

I think most people discredit him because of his Losses with Muhammad Ali, but that is far from what Liston really was capable of. Not many people look impressive against Ali.. Especially a brawler like Liston.

 

Sonny Liston is seriously overrated.

His efforts against Ali were crap, frankly.
Ok, the first fight he did ok, but then just quit with a hurt shoulder or something. Maybe he was in pain, maybe he was out-of-shape and tired of those stinging jabs from a fighter he'd probably grossly underestimated ..... but it's not the type of performance you expect from a legend. It could have been a fix, but that's no free pass either.
The second fight - forgedaboutit.

His wins over Patterson cannot be knocked - he did the business and cannot be faulted. But the opposition needs to be noted. Quick wins over fragile smaller fighters aren't enough to establish greatness. Patterson was one of the most vulnerable, fragile and protected champions in the history of the division. And his credentials for getting an immediate rematch were a joke.
The only other quality top fighters Liston beat were Machen (a fairly pedestrian performance, to be honest) and Folley (by all accounts impressive).
Cleveland Williams was okay and a dangerous hitter but was built up on tomato cans and didn't warrant a top 10 contender spot at the time. I dont believe Williams had top-class durability.

Liston's resume is overrated. His "cleaning out of the division" is overrated. he was still rising up the rankings in 1959 and 1960, and didn't secure the undisputed number 1 contender ranking until sep 1960. Became champ in 1962 and lost the title in 1964.
People give him a free pass because he lost to "the greatest", but the manner in which he lost overshadows any allowance that could be made for him losing. He went out like a gutless punk, or something.

Yes, he looks very good on film and has most of the ingredients you'd want in a heavyweight from a physical and technical standpoint. But not everything. And the bottom line is, his resume just doesn't stack up, in depth or quality, and his title fight reign is the epitome of that of a bully or a champ who just goes to **** when he gets the title.
If all champions performed like Liston did when he faced Clay/Ali the sport would miss out of all the epic proud championship battles that more or less define the greatness of the sport and it's most accomplished participants.

Dont get me wrong, Liston was a great fighter of his time, but just not the top-tier all-time great that he's made out to be. When I see him on film I'm easily seduced by the manner in which he goes about his business, his skills and his power - and he carried a persona and presence with him for sure - but there's not enough to suggest he wasn't a little bit too much of a front-runner, or at least a guy who squandered the opportunity to achieve the upper tier of greatness.

People putting him above men like Frazier and Holyfield are just crazy, IMO. Those fighters bit the bullet and battled hard when faced with adversity and the challenge of great fighters, and scored great victories (or suffered honorable defeats) as a result. Liston may have shown heart and toughness too sometimes in his career, but when it mattered most he punked out. And he doesn't have enough depth or quality in his win column to redress the balance.

 

He cleaned out the division and dominated some excellent fighters including one champion. Only prime loss was to arguably the greatest heavyweight ever (plus one thrown fight). Excellent boxing skills and abilities - size, strength, excellent and very powerful jab, technique, power, chin. Only real question was his fighting heart, which was probably influenced by matters outside the ring.

Still, I don't know many people who put him in the top 5 so not sure he is ranked that highly. Most have him 7-11.

IMO he'd do better in H2H matchups than his ranking suggests. He could do nasty things to the likes of Lewis, Marciano, Frazier, Johnson, Tyson, Holyfield, Dempsey, even Joe Louis perhaps.

 

Walcott on his best night beat Joe Louis and could upset Ali, let alone Frazier. On his off nights...well, even Michael Moorer is in with a shout

 

Lol, would be funny to do that to the top 10 ATGs and see how it reads

 

theres a level that all great fighters can look like superman. All great fighters get to fight guys who make them look human and the greatest fighters still win these fights. Part of being an all time great is beating a guy who makes you look human. Liston did not do it. This is why Liston should be left out of all GOAT lists.