Sonny Liston

I will add a couple of points here.

I think that his age has been constrained down fairly accurately now due to the emergence of certain documents. There was a thread on this a couple of years back.

There is significant evidence that an irregular betting pattern emerged before the second Ali fight. This lends weight to the idea of a fix.

 

First bout was no fix. Liston was staggered several times, cut badly across the cheek and was given a gradual beat down over six rounds. Secondly the substance in Alis eyes during the 5th round was more than likely Listons corners doing....you don't do that and then go all out to ko your opponent in a fixed fight.

The second bout has been examined very closely over the ears and no evidence of a fix has ever been found. Patterson, Damato among others at ringside felt the ko blow was a powerful punch.

 

1. He twice knocked out the dangerous and feared puncher Cleveland Williams (in 3 rounds, and 2 rounds), easily beat the former world title challenger Roy Harris in 1 round, then beat the best available contenders Zora Folley (in 3 rounds), Eddie Machen (outpointed 12 rounds). He challenged the champion Floyd Patterson and won the title with a 1 round knock-out, and repeated the result in a rematch.

2. Some sources have him born as early as 1917, which would make him 46 or 47 when he faced Ali the first time. Other sources have him born in May 1932, making him only 31. Plenty of others estimated him being in the 35 - 40 age range.
Liston himself didn't seem to know.

3. There are a number of theories : The fight was fixed.... He was out of shape, under-trained and in the ring with an opponent who he had grossly under-estimated. .... An injury to his shoulder made it impossible for him to fight effectively ...

4. My opinion is that he went down from a weak punch, a punch so weak that even Muhammad Ali didn't really believe it. But why I'm not sure .... could be a blatant dive ; a cynical quit job or maybe a fix conspiracy ... or maybe he was just an old washed-up whisky-soaked pug who couldn't take a punch on this night.

 

During training for the second bout all indications were Liston was in all time condition. Then Ali had his hernia operation that delayed the bout. Liston from accounts I have read then lost his edge. If the bout was to be fixed why would Liston go all out in training to be in the best possible condition to win? If you watch the bout after the fight is stopped and many are milling about in the ring Liston walks to the left side and ....staggers...studder steps from the effects of the KO. This is a while after the fight was stopped mind you. The other thing that's Interesting is that Listons trainer said that once back in the dressing room....nobody else there but Liston and his people....Sonny asked for smelling salts. Listons trainer stated that Liston never asked for smelling salts before.

 

1. 2 epic shoot outs with Cleveland Williams, defeats of Folley, Machen, Valdes, DeJohn, Whitehurst etc

2. Well I read somewhere that when Joe Louis was training for his fight with Tony Galento that he briefly used an 18 year old spar mate by the name of Charles Liston - if this was Liston then that would make him about 43 when he fought Ali which is about what he looked to me?

3. Your guess is as good as mine

4. Got clipped and was way off balance anyway and simply couldn't keep his feet and decided it would be more comfortable just to let himself roll onto his back and then when Ali was jumping around he decided not a good idea to try and get up - then finally when Walcott got Ali away Liston got back up and then it was waved off illegally when no count had even been administered

 

4. Yes, I think he did. Ali simply wasn't able to knock someone down like that with a single punch. Considering all that theatre of Liston while he was down, it was a pretty clear fix, does not really matter if Ali was involved or not. I never understood those who say he quit because he realised he was in over his head. You don't put that much work in selling a knockout punch who never existed unless it's premeditated.

 

Thanks for this info Houdini, its hard to get anything abit new on this so its appreciated. A note about the anchor punch Ali used in the second Liston go, I was taught it early as a golden glover and practiced it for years, mostly on a double end bag hours a day, and the whole power in it is landing as the opponent comes forward, it doubles the normal impact. At times I was very suprised at how stunned a boxer would be when I landed without much on it, or ko'd him, but its like two trains running into each other, often it doesn't look like much is on it, as with Ali's punch in the second bout.

 

Does everyone really believe that Liston quit because Ali was dominating the first fight? It has been suggested in this thread more than once and multiple times in the past. So my question is do you really believe this (kinda like those who think Leonard pitched a shutout and was dominating Duran on the scorecards of the 2nd fight), or are you just repeating the popular mantras of our day and regurgitating them?

Liston was up on 1 card 58-56 down on 1 card 56-58 and even on another 57-57. Now it has been a while, but I think I had it even, although I might have had it 58-56 Ali? I still believe that Ali would have won the fight, but I have trouble thinking that Liston quit because he was being humiliated. Perhaps tired and discouraged, but I think there is enough evidence to suggest an actual injury....I won't dispute the 2nd fight at all.

 

The first bout Ali dominated. I don't see Liston winning any round aside from the 5th. Neither fighter could see the scorecards and at the end of six rounds Ali was unmarked and fresh...Liston was badly cut, exhausted and perhaps had a separated shoulder. Liston was throwing his jab in the sixth so who knows how badly his shoulder hurt? I accept the general thought....Liston was a bully with a bulls mentality. He was beaten, hurt, so he quit.

 

Something getting into Ali's eyes is hard to believe. This has been repeated over and over, but no facts or logic support that claim.

 

In regards to the second fight being fixed.

If a fighter lands a knockout punch he knows it. He feels it. Sometimes a shock goes up the elbow.

There is film of Ali asking his brother in the ring after the fight "did I hit him?" Did I hit him?" Ofcourse his brother told him yes. He wasnt even sure he hit him. That along with the look of it makes me fairly certain that it was a dive for whatever reason.

We know that Liston took a good punch. Ali not a devastating puncher especially early in fights. Common sense suggests there was some ****** buisness going on.

With that said I dont believe that Ali was in on it. I dont believe he felt he needed any help to beat Liston he had just beaten him the last fight.

 

Ali being blinded during the 5 th round is well documented. Dundee stated it smelled like linament ....its an old trick to wipe linement on the gloves especially the left and jab it into your opponents face blinding him. Liston went all out for the ko in round 5 and ali covered and moved until it cleared up then went back to work.

 

Unless Liston held back and intentionally avoided landing anything, if Ali was blinded as people claim, he'd not have lasted the round. It's pretty obvious. Try boxing somebody with your eyes closed for half a minute to a minute. Ridiculous claim, like I said. And if the fight was indeed fixed and Liston held back, why'd he use any substance in the first place, and in the 5th round?