Sonny Liston

Liston looked a hell of a lot older than 32 against Clay IMO!

 

Silly....Liston was beaten up the first four rounds so was no where near fresh going into the 5th. He did not have the strength to do much even against a blinded Ali that round although he tried. There was no reason for Ali and his corner to fake being blinded! He was winning the bout, Liston was cut, staggered, and Ali virtually unhit going into that round. Proof is in watching the fight...don't they have YouTube in Russia?

 

Fight was not fixed. Liston went into the bout thinking an easy victory...then found himself in hot water that night. His corner more than likely wiped liniment on his gloves as a last ditch effort to pull victory from the jaws of defeat. it did not work, Ali resumed beating Liston up in the 6th. With no hope of victory, exhausted, cut, knowing he was going to be koed and with a hurt shoulder Liston quit on his stool. That's it.

 

Like I said, try boxing half a minute or a minute with your eyes closed against any opponent, even a weak one. Either he wasn't blind or he wasn't as blind as they try to claim, just slightly blurred vision, but able to see where he is stepping and where the opponent is and his punches coming.

 

Like someone already told you in this thread, Liston was ahead on one scorecard, one had Ali ahead by a point and the other one had it even. So did I. The fight wasn't as onesided as you make it out to be up to that point.

 

The fighters did not know what the scoring was during the fight. Liston was severely cut and staggered several times. Ali was unmarked and practically untouched at fights end. what the actual score was at fights end is irrelevant...one was a beaten up mess, one was unmarked. End of story!

The term "blinded" is not meant to convey that Ali was completely void of vision. No one claims Ali was BLIND as in no vision during the 5th round. His vision was from all accounts very blurred with eye pain coming from the very volatile liniment compound that was likely in his eyes at that time. This aspect of the fight is well documented and no one disputes what went on during that 5th round.

 

Very blurred is too much as well. Slightly blurred and not affecting him much, I can accept. Then it may have been not any intentional substance at all. Myths are created and repeated all the time.

 

Sorry...you are again showing that you don't have a full grasp of the facts. Dundee stated that he rubbed a sponge in Alis eyes with water in an attempt to wash out what was hurting him. He smelled the sponge and it smelled like liniment. So no myth....primary douse from the people who were there. Liniment is like mixing a oil based lotion with alcohol so lots of VOC. Think of that substance in your eyes....lots of pain and blurred vision, constant blinking. Ali did not want to go out for the 6th round it was that bad. Again the clearest evidence is to watch the fight. The announcers at ringside saw what was going on it was that obvious. Clay was blinking, something in his eyes....Ali was moving, holding...doing everything he could do give him time to recover. Joe Louis also at ringside commented that something was in Alis eyes. Again...common knowledge...boxing history...facts.

 

When you claim he was winning the fight clearly by that point to sustain your argument that Ali's corner had no reason to fake it, the scorecards become relevant. The beginning of the round 3 was the best Ali looked in that fight, and it lasted for about a minute, the rest of the round really belonged to Sonny and Ali looked exhausted and not able to finish what he started just moments before. So if you want to point out that Ali had no reason to fake it, I'm telling you, just like the scorecards do, that Sonny had no reason to use whatever substances he's accused of using to blind Ali.

 

No one should say Liston intentionally tried to blind Clay without strong evidence. I've heard that one of Liston's trainers admitted it years later but I'm not sure about that.
Clay appeared to have something in his eyes but that doesn't mean Liston did it.
Fighters often accuse other fighters or their corners of stuff like that, or blame their own corners, or imply someone doped their water and that type of thing.

Also, the fight wasn't anywhere near one-sided as some people claim. The 6th round was quite one-sided and it was the slowest round of the fight. Liston may well have felt tired and dejected but probably more so from the fact that he was under-trained and out of condition, rather than a 'humiliating beating' than just didn't occur.

 

He won't accept this because he is not an Ali fan,so it had to be a myth .

 

Wow. You really have no idea what you are talking about! Liston was severely cut, hurt and staggered. Ali was unmarked and practically untouched and Ljston had no reason to try to cheat? What planet do you come from? Liston could not catch Ali and was not only cut hurt and staggered but exhausting himself from his efforts.

Jan 28 1964 Sarasota Journal
Eddie Machen who attended the fight Backs Alis liniment complaint.

"The same thing happened to me when I fought Liston. I thought my eyes were burning out of my head." Machen said that Clay was fortunate to have an experienced handler like Dundee in his corner. He Dundee, changed sponges after the fifth round to get the liniment out of Clays eyes."

Sun Sentinal. December 1964
To everyone's surprise, Ali controlled the pace of the fight, and his twisting, odd-angle punches left welts and cuts on Liston's face. But at the end of the fourth round, Ali pleaded with Dundee to stop the fight, saying he couldn't see.

"Cut the gloves off," he said. "We're going home."

His vision was clouded and his eyes stinging, probably from liniment on Liston's shoulder or face. Dundee washed out Ali's eyes and pushed him back in the ring for the fifth round, shouting, "This is the big one, daddy! Stay away from him! Run!"

A couple of Ali's Muslim associates glowered accusingly at Dundee, suspecting him of sabotaging Ali's chances. Dundee reached into the bucket and splashed his own eyes with water to prove he hadn't hurt his own fighter. Ali's vision cleared, and by the sixth round, he was peppering Liston at will.

Bill Gallo who was at ringside NY Daily News

Sonny Liston didn't hold the heavyweight title long enough to brag about it. He won it by knocking out Floyd Patterson in 1963. He gave Floyd a return match in 1964 and kayoed him again, both times in the first round. Five months later, Liston met up with Cassius Clay and got his face really messed up. From the first round, Clay handled "The Ugly Bear" (Clay's name for Liston) like he owned him. For six rounds it was the same, Cassius beating Liston to a pulp. When the bell was about to sound for round seven, Liston didn't get up from his stool. Bloody and sullen, he'd had enough. He quit. The next day in the paper, I drew a picture of this guy sitting on his stool with his head bloody and bowed. "Sittin' Sonny," I called him. Besides how surprised I was by Clay's dominance over Liston, I remember one key round that almost turned everything around. It was the end of the fourth, and Clay (remember that was his name then) came back to his corner shouting to Angelo Dundee that he couldn't see. He was almost delirious shouting, "I can't see, I can't see.

" What happened was that some liniment from Liston's glove affected Clay's vision. Cassius, excited and convinced that they were out to "blind" him, starting screaming at Dundee, to "cut these gloves off.

" Dundee worked furiously, tossing water in his eyes to wash out any of the foreign matter. The commotion attracted the ref to his corner. "What's up?

" he said, wondering if Clay was ready to quit. Dundee quickly got between his fighter and the ref and said, "Nuthin's wrong," then gave Clay a hefty push as the bell rang for round five. Clay went out for the fifth round, blinking his eyes and dancing away from Liston. But Clay used the time in the round to clear the irritation from his eyes. So, because of Angelo's interference and healthy shove, pushing his man into the middle of the ring, you could say that maybe it was Dundee and not Ali who earned the crown that night in Miami Beach.

Dundee himself.....

"I stuck my pinkie in my fighter's eye, stuck it in my eye and it burned like hell."

In any event lots and lots of data that confirms that something got into Alis eyes during the 4th round.

 

The humiliating beating was coming next, Liston knew it ,he couldn't do anything with Ali when he was fresh, and he was gassed after the 6th,
and that's why he said f**k it.

 

Just to take a step back here......there is no doubt Ali had something in his eyes that night...end of 4th to the end of the 5th round. Whether it was an intentional act by Listons corner or something accidental we will never know. My points above are to confirm historically that Ali was blinded by some unknown substance during that bout. Machines comments seem to show that something similar happened to him when he fought Liston so one wonders if it would be an intentional act since it occurred at least twice.

 

I see you continue to make assumptions about what could have happened, just like when talking about that prime version of Ali who never existed. Why don't we talk about the glove incident against Cooper and what could have happened if Ali wasn't saved by the bell?