Sonny Liston

And Dundee was what, a neutral observer, always honest and objective? He can make whatever claims he wants. Do you even listen to what you are saying? Ali was mentally unstable yet at that point, he panicked when things got tougher a bit and wanted to quit, so they came up with a story to put the blame on Liston instead. Wow, Joe Louis said some **** too, it must have smelled so much he felt it ten feet away.
These are not facts, they are just another story about Ali that had no actual evidence to back it up.

 

Yes, that's possible and I think that is as good an explanation as to why he quit as any. Also, assuming the fight was on the level, quite probably he under-estimated Clay and hadn't expected him to last this long.

But it's speculation, nothing more.

 

Wrong date, unless Machen had a time machine.

 

Liston had been in the ring a total of 7 minutes in the 3.5 years prior to meeting Ali. They are claiming Ali was rusty for Frazier, having spent in the ring 6 times more time in the previous 4 years.

 

No facts? It's one of the most documented incidents in the history of hwt boxing.

Dundee and Pacheco stories collaborate one another.

Machen stated the same thing happened to him when he fought Liston.

All those at ringside saw what happened. There was no reason for Ali and his corner to fake anything....he was dominating the fight. For the third time Liston was severely cut along the cheekbone, eyes bruised, staggered several times and Ali was fresh and unmarked...practically unhit. for what reason would Ali have to fake being blinded by some unknown substance?

 

Friday Feb 28 1964

 

Yeah Sonny went to rot fighting 2 minutes a year.
It's often the undoing of the quick KO artist, they need to fight more often to get adequate ring time. Like Joe Louis did.

 

1. Smell - referee felt nothing, but Joe Louis and whoever else smelled it sitting at ringside.
2. Liniments are usually oily, you can't wash it off by simply throwing water in the eyes. If you start claiming he washed it off with a sponge, try rubbing your own OPEN eyes with a sponge and see how you like it.
3. The story of him sticking a finger in the eye and the finger burning from a touch is an obvious exaggeration. You realize how less sensitive the skin on finger tips is as compared to the eyes and the skin around the eye?
4. Machen stated it when exactly? After his own fight or after hearing Ali's story? Wow, he must have been light years ahead of Ali as a boxer to have that liniment on his eyes, half blind, with no cornerman clever enough to wash it off and he just stayed away from a PRIME Liston easily until his cleared off by themselves.

 

Well, my point was, if we admit the fight was on the level, it was ring rust more than underestimation.

 

The difference is that Ali did very little in terms of training over that 4 year exile and was fighting for his professional life during that time....so very preoccupied. Liston although he had not fought very often was still a working fighter. The other difference is that Liston was old...at the end really of his career...best years behind him. Ali was still young enough to recapture some level of his prime. This was proven three years later when he became the second man to ever rewin the championship and in process became the only fighter to ever ko Foreman for a 10 count.

 

Yeah, that's a valid interpretation.

 

Your really another in a long line of lost posters.

This incident is one of boxings most well documented. You are the one making things up since the evidence has been readily available for 50 years.

Dundee did not burn his finger. He put his finger in the corner of Alis eye and then put that same finger in his eye and it burned....his eye not his finger.

Machen had no reason to lie. He stated what he stated right after the bout. Everyone watching the fight knew what was happening...Ali was obviously in distress. Ali did not need to say anything.

If you watch the film of the fight you see Ali sitting in his corner and Dundee rubbing a water filled sponge across his eyes in an effort to wash away what is within them. I am convinced you have never watched the bout!

 

Yes, the court prohibited him from entering any gyms or participate in any exhibitions or sparring. But he was dieting and incredibly kept his weight the same as when he fought last time prior to returning from an exile.

 

Again you show no understanding of boxing history.

Let's make this easy. I've just presented lots of evidence that shows what is well documented history actually happened. Dundee, Machen, ringside observers, heck the film itself is evidence enough! Please show one..one reputable source that explains that Ali faked being blinded during that 5th round. If you can't you are making it up.

 

I'm sorry, but what's your definion of evidence? Do you actually think he would just force his boxer to keep fighting like that, knowing that his vision has been affected and his eyes are seriously burning? Without making a scene, not one complaint to the referee, nothing?