Sonny Liston

It isn't Machen's sense of reality that is distorted here ,it is yours.

 

Lets look at this from your perspective.Do you assert that Liston would have got back into the fight? Do you think he was winning? Do you believe he could have gotten his second wind and turned things around?
Or do you think like any sane person who watched the fight at the time that Liston was gassed ,getting his arse kicked, and was going to get a protracted hiding ?
You want to talk about the first Cooper fight fine, my Dad was there.Tell you what ,you give us the benefit of your opinion of that fight then I'll reply ok?

 

The reporters have the advantage of watching the fight from ringside so unless you were there,I'd go with them.I used to go to the fights regularly, ringside seats so a good view. My Wife would video them and I would watch them later .Often you would get a different perspective from a tv screen.

Is there anyone alive who does not agree that Liston was ring rusty and poorly prepared? What is the point of your comment ? Do you think it demeans Ali's victory? I've never seen you type anything positive about Ali.So I guess I would have to question your objectivity about him.

 

I'm able to re-watch the moments I'm not sure about several times and in slow motion if necessary, I don't get carried away by cheering and shouting, no people stand up in front of me if the seat is close to the ring and there's no need for binoculars if seating far away. I'll choose TV screen every time.

 

You've produced zero evidence to back up your counter claims. Yeah Ali wanted to quit," to show the world there was wrong doing". He has demonstrated more guts than just about any fighter I've seen . Yet according to you when things got tough he panicked, how come he didn't panic when he got his jaw broke against Norton? Or is that another myth? You are a joke.

 

No one stood up in front of me ,I was ringside, that was my point.

Can we take it you haven't seen too many fights live?
Just how many?

 

Young Cassius Clay's mental toughness <> post-exile Muhammad Ali. It's that simple. Clay looked bewildered when he was sitting in his corner after that Cooper knockdown just 1 fight before Liston. Like a young boy who thought he was so cool and strong, and suddenly some younger and smaller boy he decided to taunt not only wasn't afraid of him, but dared to knock him off his feet in front of everybody.

 

That is just your interpretation and as such is not valid evidence. Ali had been dropped before, by Banks he got up and went back to work.
Against Cooper, Ali came out for the next round all business, no panic, no bewilderment.

 

He looked bewildered in his corner, wide open, as if pleading eyes, looking around, at his cornermen, like a young boy looking if his friends were around or his older brother to stand by him, rather than get up himself at once and go on fighting.

 

Just really highly distorted viewpoints from the Russian poster.

Regarding Ali Shavers...you had Earnie up 6-2 after 8 rounds???? These were the rounds Earnie conserved himself, covered up....did little. It was late when Shavers rallied doing what he should have done from round one. Earnie won a few rounds out of the first 8 by landing crunching mostly singular punches but there is no way and I've never seen anyone who had Earnie up 6-2 after the first 8 rounds.

 

Every hwt champion gets knocked down. Ali was hit by a huge left hook right on the button and guess what? He rose immediately and went to his corner. So of course he was hurt...he had no time to recover...he had JUST gotten up! Very next round Ali destroys Cooper for the stoppage. Sign of an all time great is coming back after being hit and hurt. Just more and more silly stuff from the Russian fellow. You do realize Ali is rated by every known expert I am aware of as at the very least the second greatest hwt champion ever. Only Louis is rated above Ali by some.

 

1. Liston had an excelent run from 1957 when he got out of jail but it was not a complete clean out of a division nor were many of his opponent's as highly regarded as is often suggested. He beat rated fighters Roy Harris and zora folley in some style but only outpointed Eddie machen who ingo johansson flattened. The commanding way he flattened Patterson was impressive especially when Floyd could not improve in the rematch like he had done against ingo.

2. Not that relevant. He was a great fighter.

3. He quit because he was gassed and hurt. He had not fought many rounds in the last few years and it was just too hard going for him. He had become used to blow outs.

4. Liston did not want the rematch but had to go along with it. He did continue fighting after getting up but he had tried to be counted out after going down. Ali did not go to a neutral corner so there is some truth in his excuse of not wanting to get up whilst ALi was running around. The fight was a baddly run **** up.

 

Saint Petersburg Times
The fight was close during the first 6 rounds. Ali took control in the seventh and won the eighth.

The Day
After 12 rounds I had Ali up 8-4.

AP 10-5 Ali. (So again no way Shavers was ahead after 8 rounds)

Official scoring....
After 8 rounds
Ref. ASAAASASEAAASSA. 5-3 Ali
Judge. ASASASASAAAASSA. 4-4 Even
Judge. ASASASSAAAAASSA. 4-4 Even

Again after 8 as per the official scoring Shavers was not ahead.